1. Post #1
    maxspeed3006's Avatar
    May 2011
    458 Posts


    More than 200 migrants are feared dead in a boat sinking off the coast of Libya, a Spanish aid organisation says.

    Proactiva Open Arms said it had recovered five bodies floating near two capsized boats, which can each hold more than 100 people.

    The group's Laura Lanuza said the five they pulled from the Mediterranean were young men who appeared to have drowned.

    A spokesman for Italy's coast guard, which co-ordinates rescues, confirmed the five deaths, Reuters reports.

    Ms Lanuza at least 240 migrants may have died as the boats were often overloaded by smugglers.

    "We brought on board five corpses recovered from the sea, but no lives," the group wrote on its Facebook page.

    "It is a harsh reality check of the suffering here that is invisible in Europe."
    Source.
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  2. Post #2
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    May 2011
    3,076 Posts
    It's not going to stop if they keep bringing them to Europe instead of turning them back.
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  3. Post #3

    December 2015
    2,247 Posts
    Unpopular opinion but how about we help them and bring them to Europe safely? If they're willing enough to risk their lives they're gonna try anyway, might as well show some humility.
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  4. Post #4
    BlackMageMari's Avatar
    July 2016
    4,825 Posts
    Unpopular opinion but how about we help them and bring them to Europe safely? If they're willing enough to risk their lives they're gonna try anyway, might as well show some humility.
    To be fair I don't think that's an unpopular opinion as that is what Europe and Europeans are already doing.

    And I agree, completely. They aren't going to stop at this rate unless the countries they are coming from are improved and stabilised.

    We can't let them die.
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  5. Post #5
    certified postmodern neomarxist
    Crumpet's Avatar
    August 2009
    3,958 Posts
    Unpopular opinion but how about we help them and bring them to Europe safely? If they're willing enough to risk their lives they're gonna try anyway, might as well show some humility.
    They are human beings. They are risking their lives simply to be safe and honestly I think it is pretty vile if we leave them to die.
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  6. Post #6
    Gold Member
    MrJazzy's Avatar
    June 2009
    17,420 Posts
    It's not going to stop if they keep bringing them to Europe instead of turning them back.
    How lacking in sympathy do you have to be to not realize that you can't just turn them back, most of them don't have anywhere to go. You may be used to the idea that everybody you know is born to a home and a safe upbringing, but understand that you're very fortunate in this. There are people out there who, for generations, have never had homes.
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  7. Post #7
    Anteep's Avatar
    July 2006
    414 Posts
    I agree with the sentiment that we help these people, however most people will probably agree that there must be a plan alongside this to cut off migration at its sources, otherwise you'll just incentivize it further and there'll be more migrants dying in the med.

  8. Post #8
    Gold Member
    MrJazzy's Avatar
    June 2009
    17,420 Posts
    To be fair I don't think that's an unpopular opinion as that is what Europe and Europeans are already doing.

    And I agree, completely. They aren't going to stop at this rate unless the countries they are coming from are improved and stabilised.

    We can't let them die.
    There are clear examples in history of Europe and the US getting involved in global affairs, and then refusing to support others in their need. The post-SU Russian switch of market forms for example, leading to what Russia is today. "Turning people away" however you do that would be a horribly short sighted move by the western world. A long term mentality should be to rebuild.

  9. Post #9
    Gold Member
    Jordax's Avatar
    June 2012
    3,138 Posts
    How lacking in sympathy do you have to be to not realize that you can't just turn them back, most of them don't have anywhere to go. You may be used to the idea that everybody you know is born to a home and a safe upbringing, but understand that you're very fortunate in this. There are people out there who, for generations, have never had homes.
    We can't take care for the entirety of Africa forever. It's not feasible in the long run if thousands a day come over either. One day, we will have to turn them back anyway. And hopefully, that day comes sooner than later. Some people might call it heartless, but let's be realistic here. We can't keep this up forever. Especially if Africa's population keeps growing so drastically while being over-reliant on Western aid in the first place.

  10. Post #10
    How lacking in sympathy do you have to be to not realize that you can't just turn them back, most of them don't have anywhere to go. You may be used to the idea that everybody you know is born to a home and a safe upbringing, but understand that you're very fortunate in this. There are people out there who, for generations, have never had homes.
    You have to choose between giving a higher standard of living to a bunch of foreign refugees and changing your way of living to something less comfortable or just do nothing.

  11. Post #11
    Dvdgg's Avatar
    September 2012
    1,719 Posts
    As far as I know, immigrants here, after they arrive by boat or however they do, get sent to immigration centres where they are supposed to be fed and have a bed. Meanwhile, they get processed and the government tries to send them back to their countries. But when immigrants come without any identity documents, and when asked about their country of origin, usually they'll say they are from a country with a war going on so they can't be sent back.
    They might be from other countries and tell the truth, or they might have documentation with them, but then the authorities have to contact with the immigrant's origin country and confirm he is indeed a citizen there and set up a way to get him or her back there.

    The thing is, the immigration centers have limited space and resources. Processing the immigrants takes time, and meanwhile more immigrants come. All centers are overwhelmed with them, and they can't make them stay in a place where they can't get food or shelter because there is none left, so most just leave unprocessed and try getting by on their own. Others just flee to avoid being sent back to their country of origin, because there is nothing left for them there, or because they have a family there to feed and their only hope is getting money on other country.

    This is a tragedy, a tragedy that saddly has happened before and undoubtely will happen again, at least until the conflicts in the immigrant's countries are solved and they have no reason to migrate to begin with.
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  12. Post #12
    BlackMageMari's Avatar
    July 2016
    4,825 Posts
    There are clear examples in history of Europe and the US getting involved in global affairs, and then refusing to support others in their need. The post-SU Russian switch of market forms for example, leading to what Russia is today. "Turning people away" however you do that would be a horribly short sighted move by the western world. A long term mentality should be to rebuild.
    Oh I know, I was just talking about current events. Though I wasn't entirely correct either - Europe has mishandled aspects of the crisis very poorly.

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    MrJazzy's Avatar
    June 2009
    17,420 Posts
    We can't take care for the entirety of Africa forever. It's not feasible in the long run if thousands a day come over either. One day, we will have to turn them back anyway. And hopefully, that day comes sooner than later. Some people might call it heartless, but let's be realistic here. We can't keep this up forever. Especially if Africa's population keeps growing so drastically while being over-reliant on Western aid in the first place.
    When the entire population of Africa comes to Europe, let's have this conversation.
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  14. Post #14

    December 2015
    2,247 Posts
    When the entire population of Africa comes to Europe, let's have this conversation.
    When that happens it will be too late
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  15. Post #15
    BlackMageMari's Avatar
    July 2016
    4,825 Posts
    When that happens it will be too late
    I think he was being sarcastic.
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  16. Post #16
    Gold Member
    MrJazzy's Avatar
    June 2009
    17,420 Posts
    When that happens it will be too late
    My point being that Jordax is arguing about a made up reality
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  17. Post #17
    Trebgarta's Avatar
    March 2014
    6,521 Posts
    It's not going to stop if they keep bringing them to Europe instead of turning them back.
    You know mediterranean boats have been there since mid 90s right?

    It has been going on for 25 ~ years.

  18. Post #18
    pierre0158's Avatar
    June 2010
    218 Posts
    -snip-

  19. Post #19
    St33m's Avatar
    November 2009
    883 Posts
    I don't think Europeans can solve this, as some people in this thread seem to think. Sure we can help, and it definitely wont be solved if we obstruct.

    But ultimately the countries these people are fleeing from suck because of the people that live there. They are going to have to change fundamentally as individuals if this shit is gonna get any better.

  20. Post #20
    Gold Member
    _Axel's Avatar
    September 2009
    7,219 Posts
    I don't think Europeans can solve this, as some people in this thread seem to think. Sure we can help, and it definitely wont be solved if we obstruct.

    But ultimately the countries these people are fleeing from suck because of the people that live there. They are going to have to change fundamentally as individuals if this shit is gonna get any better.
    What do you mean by "because of the people that live there"?

  21. Post #21
    St33m's Avatar
    November 2009
    883 Posts
    What do you mean by "because of the people that live there"?
    Well these people seemingly just do not produce societies with any level of tolerance for things that deviate from the accepted norm. No widespread tradition of education, no acceptance of women's rights, tribal feuds are rampant.. Like this is shit that was wrong with the place long before the western world started fucking with it.

  22. Post #22
    certified postmodern neomarxist
    Crumpet's Avatar
    August 2009
    3,958 Posts
    You have to choose between giving a higher standard of living to a bunch of foreign refugees and changing your way of living to something less comfortable or just do nothing.
    'A bunch of foreign refugees...' I assume you didn't mean bad with that but still.

    They're just people dude, like me and you. They didn't ask to be born, and their incredible experience of the marvel that is life is this shit. The world has more than the means to make everyone happy and safe, but that's another topic entirely, so is extending a hand to these poor bastards too much to ask? I wonder if they ever shake the feeling of 'why me'.
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  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    _Axel's Avatar
    September 2009
    7,219 Posts
    Well these people seemingly just do not produce societies with any level of tolerance for things that deviate from the accepted norm. No widespread tradition of education, no acceptance of women's rights, tribal feuds are rampant.. Like this is shit that was wrong with the place long before the western world started fucking with it.
    And what makes you think this is due to the people who live here rather than the myriad of other geopolitical influences at play?
    And saying shit has always been this way in these regions completely ignores the fact that a few centuries ago, they were the ones in a golden age while Europe was busy fighting among itself and spreading obscurantism.

  24. Post #24

    December 2015
    2,247 Posts
    Well these people seemingly just do not produce societies with any level of tolerance for things that deviate from the accepted norm. No widespread tradition of education, no acceptance of women's rights, tribal feuds are rampant.. Like this is shit that was wrong with the place long before the western world started fucking with it.
    They don't even have infrastructure and you're talking about women's rights? Of course they can't have any of that because we destabilized the fuck out of them either by slavery-level production in case of Africa or war in case of Middle East.
    They are the way they are right now largely due to abuse from western nations.

    Can you name the time period when it was before westerners started fucking with this shit? Even during medieval times we loved to fuck with Africa.
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  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    elowin's Avatar
    December 2009
    14,299 Posts
    Well these people seemingly just do not produce societies with any level of tolerance for things that deviate from the accepted norm. No widespread tradition of education, no acceptance of women's rights, tribal feuds are rampant.. Like this is shit that was wrong with the place long before the western world started fucking with it.
    you mean kind of like the western world about a century or two ago?

  26. Post #26
    Gold Member
    Talishmar's Avatar
    March 2007
    7,493 Posts
    So what is the true root cause of this problem?

  27. Post #27
    Dennab
    October 2016
    919 Posts
    So what is the true root cause of this problem?
    Greed, corruption, religion.

  28. Post #28
    Penis Architect
    Paul-Simon's Avatar
    November 2008
    14,976 Posts
    So what is the true root cause of this problem?
    "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
    - Douglas Adams
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  29. Post #29

    January 2012
    188 Posts
    My point being that Jordax is arguing about a made up reality
    Which parts are made up? Africa is reliant on western aid and is experiencing extreme population growth. It will double by 2050. Then do you think available resources per person there will increase or decrease because of that, if they're dependent on others.

    And what makes you think this is due to the people who live here rather than the myriad of other geopolitical influences at play?
    And saying shit has always been this way in these regions completely ignores the fact that a few centuries ago, they were the ones in a golden age while Europe was busy fighting among itself and spreading obscurantism.
    What golden age? So Europe was backwards in thought before the enlightenment, which coincides with technological progression, but somehow technologically far inferior societies were in a golden age comparatively. As if tribal fighting only happens in Europe, someone had to enslaved to be sold in west Africa to begin with, for example.

    They don't even have infrastructure and you're talking about women's rights? Of course they can't have any of that because we destabilized the fuck out of them either by slavery-level production in case of Africa or war in case of Middle East.
    They are the way they are right now largely due to abuse from western nations.

    Can you name the time period when it was before westerners started fucking with this shit? Even during medieval times we loved to fuck with Africa.
    Dude, North Africa was doing slave raids on Europe for centuries. Before that we have Islamic caliphates taking over classical civilization (but lol I'm supposed to thank them for preserving parts of texts of that period) in North Africa and the middle east. Then creeping into Spain and the Balkans.

    How can you seriously say Europe was fucking with Africa in the medieval.

  30. Post #30
    Gold Member
    _Axel's Avatar
    September 2009
    7,219 Posts
    What golden age? So Europe was backwards in thought before the enlightenment, which coincides with technological progression, but somehow technologically far inferior societies were in a golden age comparatively.
    Uuuh, the Islamic Golden Age? You know, that period of history during which huge cultural, scientific and economic strides were made in the Arab world?
    "Technologically far inferior societies"? What are you getting that from?
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  31. Post #31

    January 2012
    188 Posts
    The article here doesn't specify what migrants they are. This is a common route for black migrants from Africa. Those are who I meant, did you think about Arabs?

  32. Post #32
    Gold Member
    _Axel's Avatar
    September 2009
    7,219 Posts
    The article here doesn't specify what migrants they are. This is a common route for black migrants from Africa. Those are who I meant, did you think about Arabs?
    The original post I responded to simply mentioned "the countries people are fleeing from" so I assumed he was talking about Africa + ME in general.

  33. Post #33

    January 2012
    188 Posts
    Ok, from what I've seen before I had an image that Arabs mostly don't go through there and assumed we are talking specifically about Africa.