1. Post #1
    Fudders
    MAKING FACEPUNCH GREAT AGAIN
    Tudd's Avatar
    September 2010
    7,537 Posts
    Muslim parents had alleged that sending their daughters to compulsory swimming lessons violated freedom of religion. The ECHR ruled that Swiss authorities were within bounds to deny an exemption.

    Switzerland did not violate freedom of religion by denying two Muslim students an exemption from compulsory mixed-gender swimming classes, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled on Tuesday.

    The case concerned the refusal of Muslim parents of Turkish origin, Aziz Osmanoglu and Sehabat Kocabas, to send their two daughters to compulsory mixed-gender swimming classes as part of school curriculum and the refusal of authorities in Basel to grant an exemption on religious grounds.

    The parents alleged that the swimming classes were contrary to their religious convictions. At the time in 2010, the two girls had not yet reached puberty, a factor the court took into account - they would not have been obliged to participate if pubescent.

    The ECHR found that while religious rights were at issue, the children's education and successful social integration "according to local customs and mores" took precedent over the parents' desire to have their daughters exempted from swimming lessons.

    "Swiss authorities had given precedence to the children's obligation to follow the full school curriculum and had not infringed the right to freedom of religion," the court said in a press release.

    Schools have "a special role in the process of social integration, and one that was all the more decisive where pupils of foreign origin were concerned," the court said. Noting that states have "considerable discretion" in teaching and education, the court said Switzerland was "free to devise their school curricula according to their needs and traditions."

    "Sports education, of which swimming was an integral part in the school attended by the applicants' children, was of special importance for children's development and health," the court said.

    The court further found that children's interest in attending swimming lessons was not only to learn to swim and do physical activity, but "above all to take part in that activity with all the other pupils."
    http://www.dw.com/en/echr-rules-musl...and/a-37074161
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac Chrome United States Show Events Starred Starred x 6 (list)

  2. Post #2
    Absolute tosser, manchild, and belligerent douche-nozzle.
    download's Avatar
    July 2006
    9,834 Posts
    Lol, tough shit.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Firefox Australia Show Events Starred Starred x 18 (list)

  3. Post #3
    DERAILER OF THREADS DESTROYER OF IDIOTS
    Emperor Scorpious II's Avatar
    February 2009
    33,385 Posts
    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.

  4. Post #4
    F.X Clampazzo's Avatar
    October 2016
    1,077 Posts
    Good.

    Edited:

    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.
    It was entirely due to their backwards "family morals" bullshit yeah.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Firefox United States Show Events Starred Starred x 18 (list)

  5. Post #5
    Svinnik's Avatar
    June 2013
    5,658 Posts
    This is an interesting case but it's definitely going to cause problems with Muslims and other minority religious groups in the EU.

  6. Post #6

    April 2011
    1,326 Posts
    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.
    Muhammad himself told his followers to have their children learn how to swim

    https://www.al-islam.org/a-bundle-of...ights-children
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Chrome United States Show Events Starred Starred x 7 (list)

  7. Post #7
    Svinnik's Avatar
    June 2013
    5,658 Posts
    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.
    There isn't but in Islam men and women do not swim together. It's the same in some flavors of Orthodox Judaism and some forms of fundamentalist Christianity.

  8. Post #8
    Trebgarta's Avatar
    March 2014
    5,866 Posts
    There isn't but in Islam men and women do not swim together. It's the same in some flavors of Orthodox Judaism and some forms of fundamentalist Christianity.
    No, in retardedly conservative patriarchal societies where women and men are segregated, they dont swim together. There is no society called "Islam".
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Android Chrome Germany Show Events Starred Starred x 19 (list)

  9. Post #9
    Svinnik's Avatar
    June 2013
    5,658 Posts
    No, in retardedly conservative patriarchal societies where women and men are segregated, they dont swim together. There is no society called "Islam".
    There is no society but there is a religion that dictates these things called Islam.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome United States Show Events Starred Starred x 3 (list)

  10. Post #10
    Gold Member
    Boilrig's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,229 Posts
    These kind of cases are just going to be more and more frequent, it will just be rewriting the same things over and over.

  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    Silly Sil's Avatar
    March 2006
    6,000 Posts
    No, in retardedly conservative patriarchal societies where women and men are segregated, they dont swim together. There is no society called "Islam".
    Yeah that thing called "Islam" has nothing to do with these "retardedly conservative patriarchal societies".
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Firefox Poland Show Events Starred Starred x 4 (list)

  12. Post #12
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2008
    2,174 Posts
    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.
    I've posted about this before, but this whole question is a red herring. What Islam says or doesn't say on the issue is a moot point.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome United States Show Events Starred Starred x 7 (list)

  13. Post #13
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
    TacticalBacon's Avatar
    November 2010
    6,083 Posts
    Is there something actually against swimming in Islam (which I find hard to believe) or are the parents just using it as an excuse not to have their daughters around boys? The article sort of beats around the bush with that.
    If I recall correctly, this case was all brought about by a hyper-conservative muslim family who thought that even a burkini was too revealing and immodest for their daughter to be wearing in public.



    Yep.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome Australia Show Events Starred Starred x 3 (list)

  14. Post #14
    Gold Member
    da space core's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,012 Posts
    The point is, religious conservatism should not be held above the law
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome New Zealand Show Events Starred Starred x 26 (list)

  15. Post #15
    Gold Member
    Crhem van der B's Avatar
    January 2010
    1,612 Posts
    [..] the children's education and successful social integration "according to local customs and mores" took precedent [..]
    YES! Thank you.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome United Kingdom Show Events Starred Starred x 10 (list)

  16. Post #16

    June 2016
    788 Posts
    No, in retardedly conservative patriarchal societies where women and men are segregated, they dont swim together. There is no society called "Islam".
    Islam society =! islamic society, which exist.

  17. Post #17
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    16,382 Posts
    Muhammad himself told his followers to have their children learn how to swim

    https://www.al-islam.org/a-bundle-of...ights-children
    The Nahj al-Balagha is disputed (like most extra-Quran texts) in terms of authenticity so chances are a lot of Muslims don't acknowledge it.

  18. Post #18
    CarnolfMeatla's Avatar
    October 2016
    453 Posts
    No, in retardedly conservative patriarchal societies where women and men are segregated, they dont swim together. There is no society called "Islam".
    So you are against conservative christian society, but not against conservative islamic society?

  19. Post #19
    Gold Member
    01271's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,513 Posts
    So you are against conservative christian society, but not against conservative islamic society?
    No he's against retardedly conservative patriarchal societies and there is no society called islam
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply iPhone Safari Canada Show Events Starred Starred x 3 (list)

  20. Post #20
    Dennab
    December 2016
    52 Posts
    imo the whole court case ruling is stupid. they shouldn't be forced to partake in an event that violates their beliefs and hence, makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Just let them be exempted and problem solved

  21. Post #21
    Gold Member
    simkas's Avatar
    May 2005
    21,093 Posts
    imo the whole court case ruling is stupid. they shouldn't be forced to partake in an event that violates their beliefs and hence, makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Just let them be exempted and problem solved
    They shouldn't be forced to follow their abusive patriarchal beliefs either.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome Lithuania Show Events Starred Starred x 2 (list)

  22. Post #22

    December 2015
    2,247 Posts
    imo the whole court case ruling is stupid. they shouldn't be forced to partake in an event that violates their beliefs and hence, makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Just let them be exempted and problem solved
    That is NOT how you integrate.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome Latvia Show Events Starred Starred x 3 (list)

  23. Post #23
    Dennab
    December 2016
    52 Posts
    They shouldn't be forced to follow their abusive patriarchal beliefs either.
    who's being abused here?

  24. Post #24

    December 2015
    2,247 Posts
    who's being abused here?
    The kids by their parents by not allowing them to be taught basic life skills
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Chrome Latvia Show Events Starred Starred x 5 (list)

  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    sgman91's Avatar
    July 2006
    9,611 Posts
    That is NOT how you integrate.
    Forcing people to go against their deeply held beliefs, especially for a reason that doesn't even really matter, will most definitely not help integration.

    Edited:

    The kids by their parents by not allowing them to be taught basic life skills
    The parents didn't forbid the daughter from learning how to swim. There are plenty of options.

  26. Post #26
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    16,382 Posts
    Forcing people to go against their deeply held beliefs, especially for a reason that doesn't even really matter, will most definitely not help integration.
    How does it not matter? Knowing how to swim can be a life an death situation. That's why it's being forced. It's not too dissimilar from overriding Jehovah's Witness parents trying to refuse their kids blood transfusions, maybe not quite as severe but it's a similar concept all in all.

  27. Post #27
    F.X Clampazzo's Avatar
    October 2016
    1,077 Posts
    Forcing people to go against their deeply held beliefs, especially for a reason that doesn't even really matter, will most definitely not help integration.

    Edited:



    The parents didn't forbid the daughter from learning how to swim. There are plenty of options.
    ...

    Remember the last thread on this topic where we cited sources in the US based on knowledge of how to swim? Because clearly you seem to not understand that swimming is a life saving, and vital skill regardless of where you live.

    F.X Clampazzo posted:
    You're making a strawman. Nobody is preventing her from learning how to swim. She can learn on her own or with family just fine, just like the vast majority of people throughout history.

    Edited:



    Show me the stats on number of people saved from required swimming classes and we can have a discussion about it.
    Uhh there are about 4 billion people worldwide that don't currently know how to swim.

    According to the YMCA and the CDC (and some other sources who have reported on it), about 70% of Black Americans and 40% of White Americans don't know how to swim as of 2015. In 2010, 6 teens died while wading in the Red River and no one could save them because their friends and family couldn't swim either.

    You take your ability to swim for granted and your ignorance on the topic shows.

    Swimming lessons cost money and historically less people knew how to swim than we do today. Shit public pools are a pretty damn modern thing too. Swimming and the education there of is actually really low historically, even sailors had abysmal figures for education in swimming upward till the late 19th century and onward as we still see rather alarming figures for people who can't swim today still.

    That minor point aside, this thread isn't about mandatory swimming, it's about people trying to weasel their way out of parts of first world education they happen to have some problem with for "religious reasons". Which is a very bad precedent to set.
    You know this one? That was in direct response to you and your ignorance?

    Seeing as you're still just as uninformed as before, maybe a second post will finally reach you:

    CDC posted:
    From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States about ten deaths per day.1 An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2
    Also reported by the CDC, drowning rates in the last decade have declined, due in part to the rising rate of swimming/water safety education.*

    * Brenner RA, Taneja GS, Haynie DL, Trumble AC, Qian C, Klinger RM, Klevanoff MA. Association between swimming lessons and drowning in childhood: A case-control study. Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine 2009;163(3):203-10.

    Shit I'll even link you the CDC webpage so you can read it all for your self, it's all right there in handy factoid format:

    https://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreatio...factsheet.html
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 10 Firefox United States Show Events Starred Starred x 1 (list)

  28. Post #28
    Gold Member
    Tetsmega's Avatar
    October 2006
    9,140 Posts
    imo the whole court case ruling is stupid. they shouldn't be forced to partake in an event that violates their beliefs and hence, makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Just let them be exempted and problem solved
    It's not based religious beliefs though, previous articles about this issue stated that it was against the parent's personal beliefs. That'd be like allowing parents to not vaccinate purely on the belief that the parent thinks it causes autism.

  29. Post #29
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
    TacticalBacon's Avatar
    November 2010
    6,083 Posts
    The parents didn't forbid the daughter from learning how to swim. There are plenty of options.
    They kinda did by refusing every option available to them. And frankly, if they don't want to integrate and do things like this, maybe it's not the society for them.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Android Chrome Australia Show Events Starred Starred x 3 (list)