1. Post #1
    Dear leader of the DPRKFC
    Xieneus's Avatar
    December 2009
    14,508 Posts

    overlord andrew told me to spread this video to the masses, enjoy
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  2. Post #2
    Gold Member
    Doom14's Avatar
    October 2006
    9,363 Posts
    I kept wanting to make a comment while watching, but then he addressed the points I was thinking of right after. I pretty much agree outright.

    The one-way door stuff in late game seriously ruined my enjoyment as I fucked up my 100% run in the process. The multiplayer was a major weak point - it was bland and uninteresting, and while Snapmap is a great attempt and console-accessible, there's simply no way it would ever match what fans have been doing to ID Games from Wolf 3D up to Quake 3 with religious fervor. It was great they added all the code/gameplay adjustments internally, but it just can't compete. Snapmap took me half a day to make a 3-minute mock dating sim, but in the same half-a-day timespan, I can make a fully fledged map for the original game's modern port, gzDoom.

    In the defense of Doom 4 though, people kept asking for Rage's CDK since it came out. And later it did! To which there have been no mods for outside of a stats-based balance adjustment, because the damn thing was a big complicated mess. Even with a full CDK tool and some real excited fans, I just can't see them ever matching what's being done to ID's older games in the modding scene. Or anything new, for that matter.
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  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    HWECQI's Avatar
    May 2009
    5,490 Posts
    I don't entirely agree with him on his points, though I can see where he was coming from.

    That being said, I'm super happy to see Barley back making videos after so long!
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  4. Post #4
    Gold Member
    DiscoInferno's Avatar
    November 2008
    12,441 Posts
    He keeps bringing up Doom 1 and 2 mods, but I don't really believe that's entirely fair Doom 4's part. Mods are not truely part of the game. They're not made by the creator and (especially in Doom's case) can take wildly different directions to the original. Imagine if someone argued that one dessert was better than the other because you could throw one of them away and put something else on the plate. To me that sounds like a pretty weak argument.

    Taking out the modding aspect, his argument for Doom 1 &2 being great seems to end up being "it was special to me!" which isn't an argument at all. He points out flaws in Doom 4's design, to his credit. It wasn't just stroking retro-gaming cock like the video could have been. But if he thinks vanilla Doom 1 & 2 are flawless then he has to be kidding himself. Many of his points of contention with Doom 4 can be somewhat alleviated with self-imposed challenges like no runes or limited upgrades. Maybe he finds the game easy because he's a grown man with many years of experience in gaming?

    If the "better" in the title is meant to be referring to cultural impact then of course a modern example in a saturated genre is going to fall short to a very early example that kickstarted that very same genre. There was a time when FPSs were known as Doom-clones. Unless somehow Doom 4 created an entirely new genre then it was a doomed to fall short of any comparison.

    All in all, I believe his argument is flawed and unreasonable. And if it's just meant to be an opinion, then broadcasting it online is still grounds for debate. If you say something, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a reply.
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  5. Post #5
    Gold Member
    Doom14's Avatar
    October 2006
    9,363 Posts
    He keeps bringing up Doom 1 and 2 mods, but I don't really believe that's entirely fair Doom 4's part.
    ID Games was reciprocative and even outright supportive of the early modding community for Doom 1 & 2. I think it's actually a fair comparison to at least point out that SnapMap was a half-measure rather than an outright CDK for the PC crowd. (And as I said earlier, look to Rage's CDK and just how much use it got for a laugh.)

    I find the self-imposed challenges bit you added a bit contrived too. Upgrades and runes are integral to Doom 4's campaign. There's no such thing in the original games, or even Doom 3. It was get weapon, shoot baddies. Not get weapon, weigh mod selection, manage ruins so they complement me, hunt down robots with more mod parts, hunt down ruin challenges for better ruin buffs. They didn't really bother me, however - just mentioning.


    Of course, Doom 4 is a homage to a game old enough to drink, fuck, and join the FBI - so it's a given that in a vacuum without modding and release dates removed, that Doom 4 might seem to be a better game outright. I'm certainly happy hitscan enemies were gone, at the very least. But on the flip side, I feel like the really dropped the ball by having no form of cooperative play and instead leaving it up to SnapMap creations.
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  6. Post #6
    Gold Member
    Rixxz2's Avatar
    July 2007
    4,640 Posts
    He keeps bringing up Doom 1 and 2 mods, but I don't really believe that's entirely fair Doom 4's part. Mods are not truely part of the game. They're not made by the creator and (especially in Doom's case) can take wildly different directions to the original. Imagine if someone argued that one dessert was better than the other because you could throw one of them away and put something else on the plate. To me that sounds like a pretty weak argument.
    I'd argue that's sort of a perspective thing, in a game you may enjoy the fluidity and design of the gameplay, just as you may enjoy a certain taste or scent in a dessert. Adding a couple of ingredients doesn't mean that the thing you originally enjoyed has now been completely thrown out the window, it's still there, accompanied by things that may bring out the taste you enjoy so much even more.

    You may also enjoy a song very much, and suddenly you hear a remix of it, and it breathes new life into it, and you begin to appreciate it even more, but in a different way. Perhaps it's not even a remix at all, perhaps it just clarifies the lyrics, making you actually understand them, which in turn makes the listening experience a whole lot deeper than it was before.

    Had Doom 4 supported actual modding it would've been a lot more long lived, in the way that it would probably still have an active player base and people talking about it in 2026, there's no question about it. But as it stands right now, while still a great game, the multiplayer will likely be completely dead and it will be mostly forgotten in just a couple of years.
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  7. Post #7
    Gold Member
    DiscoInferno's Avatar
    November 2008
    12,441 Posts
    I'd argue that's sort of a perspective thing, in a game you may enjoy the fluidity and design of the gameplay, just as you may enjoy a certain taste or scent in a dessert. Adding a couple of ingredients doesn't mean that the thing you originally enjoyed has now been completely thrown out the window, it's still there, accompanied by things that may bring out the taste you enjoy so much even more.

    You may also enjoy a song very much, and suddenly you hear a remix of it, and it breathes new life into it, and you begin to appreciate it even more, but in a different way. Perhaps it's not even a remix at all, perhaps it just clarifies the lyrics, making you actually understand them, which in turn makes the listening experience a whole lot deeper than it was before.

    Had Doom 4 supported actual modding it would've been a lot more long lived, in the way that it would probably still have an active player base and people talking about it in 2026, there's no question about it. But as it stands right now, while still a great game, the multiplayer will likely be completely dead and it will be mostly forgotten in just a couple of years.
    Doom 4, like almost any game, would of course greatly benefit from modding support. My point was that Doom mods are not strictly Doom. If the title was 'Is Doom 4 Better than Old Doom (with Mods)' then that would be more clear. As it stands, he's bringing in outside-context content to back up his point about the quality of Doom.

    Edited:

    I find the self-imposed challenges bit you added a bit contrived too. Upgrades and runes are integral to Doom 4's campaign. There's no such thing in the original games, or even Doom 3. It was get weapon, shoot baddies. Not get weapon, weigh mod selection, manage ruins so they complement me, hunt down robots with more mod parts, hunt down ruin challenges for better ruin buffs. They didn't really bother me, however - just mentioning.
    They're not integral enough for the game to force them upon you. You may get heaps of weapon upgrades, but the game doesn't stop until you allocate them. You can fail rune challenges or simply not even reach them.
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  8. Post #8
    Gold Member
    krail9's Avatar
    June 2008
    9,350 Posts
    kind of annoying to see people constantly harping on modding these days

    what would it even bring to the table that snapmap doesn't? do you really think modders are going to be able to add new content on the same level and graphical fidelity as the actual game? are they going to be able to use this engine easily? and if they have the talent and skills to do that, why would they be making a mod instead of just using one of the many cheap and easy to use engines like unity or ue4 to make their own game?

    modding for the original doom is big because it's easy. anyone can learn the decorate script in a few hours and draw custom sprites with only a little artistic ability. modding is big for titles like skyrim and fallout because they're sandboxes

    look at some of the most popular mods for doom 3 like the thief one and tell me why someone would make that in doom 4 instead of ue4 these days
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  9. Post #9
    BlueFlytrap's Avatar
    November 2012
    1,171 Posts
    what would it even bring to the table that snapmap doesn't?
    A lift on restrictions I imagine. Snapmap is real neato but isn't allowed to go beyond what the xbox one can handle.

    do you really think modders are going to be able to add new content on the same level and graphical fidelity as the actual game?
    Absolutely.

    are they going to be able to use this engine easily?
    Only one way to find out.

    and if they have the talent and skills to do that, why would they be making a mod instead of just using one of the many cheap and easy to use engines like unity or ue4 to make their own game?
    Because making your own game is way harder than making a mod for an existing game maybe? Is there even a scenario where this is not the case?
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  10. Post #10
    "Sounds like something Stiffy would say."
    Stiffy360's Avatar
    May 2011
    5,173 Posts
    IIRC the only reason rage wasn't modded a huge amount was due to how the entire map had baked lighting. Not to mention it was more open world and the fact rage wasn't super huge.

    Doom 4 being mostly dynamic and level based would solve a number of those issues.

  11. Post #11
    Hello Handsome
    ForgottenKane's Avatar
    February 2010
    13,703 Posts
    IIRC the only reason rage wasn't modded a huge amount was due to how the entire map had baked lighting. Not to mention it was more open world and the fact rage wasn't super huge.

    Doom 4 being mostly dynamic and level based would solve a number of those issues.
    Rage was one of the most unoptimized pieces of garbage I have ever played. If that alone didn't scare away the modding community, I wouldn't know what could.

  12. Post #12
    FlamingBlizza's Avatar
    January 2013
    1,201 Posts
    i wanna hear the full version of barley's creep cover now

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    Marphy Black's Avatar
    December 2004
    1,398 Posts
    kind of annoying to see people constantly harping on modding these days

    what would it even bring to the table that snapmap doesn't?
    I want to spawn more than 12 monsters at once.
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  14. Post #14
    Dear leader of the DPRKFC
    Xieneus's Avatar
    December 2009
    14,508 Posts
    i wanna hear the full version of barley's creep cover now
    overlord andrew has requested that i deliver this to you
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  15. Post #15
    Ask me about my Marvel/DC fetish
    AaronM202's Avatar
    May 2010
    26,728 Posts
    The way you speak of him makes me think he's some looming god figure in the sky, peering at us through our windows.

    Edited:

    The Man in the Moon is actually Barley.

  16. Post #16
    Dear leader of the DPRKFC
    Xieneus's Avatar
    December 2009
    14,508 Posts
    The way you speak of him makes me think he's some looming god figure in the sky, peering at us through our windows.
    i live for andrew, i die for andrew

    the difference is trivial
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  17. Post #17
    Gold Member
    simkas's Avatar
    May 2005
    20,998 Posts
    Absolutely.
    Really? We're not talking about sprites here, we're talking about really complex models and textures that take the big AAA team artists a long time to make and there's a reason why those people work in AAA development and modders are just modders.

    Because making your own game is way harder than making a mod for an existing game maybe? Is there even a scenario where this is not the case?
    Not really. That might be true for old games like Doom 1 and 2 but modern engines are so complex that the amount of work you'd have to put into them to make decent sized mods would almost be more than you would if you were just making your own game in Unity or UE4 or something like that.
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  18. Post #18
    Gold Member
    DiscoInferno's Avatar
    November 2008
    12,441 Posts
    I'd just like to say that I would be all behind Doom 4 getting a CDK or whatever they're called. Even keeping Snapmap as a 'babby's first modding tool' option. It's also not a total pipe dream considering the game is still being supported and with one last DLC to be released (I think?). It would be a relatively cheap way of extending the lifespan of a game.

  19. Post #19
    Gold Member
    Rixxz2's Avatar
    July 2007
    4,640 Posts
    do you really think modders are going to be able to add new content on the same level and graphical fidelity as the actual game?
    Dunno if you're aware, but there's a fuck ton of Half-Life 2 and CS:GO maps that look way better than Valve's own work

    And no, building onto an existing game is not at all the same thing as starting from scratch in something like UE4

  20. Post #20
    BlueFlytrap's Avatar
    November 2012
    1,171 Posts
    Really? We're not talking about sprites here, we're talking about really complex models and textures that take the big AAA team artists a long time to make and there's a reason why those people work in AAA development and modders are just modders.
    Bear in mind the quote I was responding to was asking if stuff of the same fidelity as ingame models would even happen and the answer would be yes. High to low 3d modelling and texturing using the specular pbr workflow is an entirely different skillset than painting sprites, whether or not it's harder is a matter of opinion, but that doesn't mean modders are for some reason without these skills.
    You have to get the skill somewhere after all. There's no better place to learn.

    As for the models themselves; I have gotten quite a good look at the doom 4 models and they aren't as complex as they appear at a glance. Which surprised me honestly as they look so gorgeous inengine.
    There doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary with them. They're all pretty standard save for the resolution quirks of the Id Tech 6 engine.

    Not really. That might be true for old games like Doom 1 and 2 but modern engines are so complex that the amount of work you'd have to put into them to make decent sized mods would almost be more than you would if you were just making your own game in Unity or UE4 or something like that.
    Alright let me rephrase that. Would it be more work to recreate the entirety of the first doom from scratch in another engine than to just mod it?
    Yes.

    Would it be more work to recreate the entirety of doom 4 in another engine than to just mod it?
    Also yes.

    Reminder that I was replying to someone asking why someone would mod something when they could make an entire game instead. It was never comparing how easy it was to mod doom instead of doom 4.
    If it was that would be quite silly indeed. Whether it was harder to mod a game with the source code released 20 years ago versus a game so hard to break open it takes hundreds of hours just to get a few textures out is hardly a matter of debate.

  21. Post #21
    Gold Member
    NewfZ's Avatar
    January 2006
    186 Posts
    All in all, I believe his argument is flawed and unreasonable. And if it's just meant to be an opinion, then broadcasting it online is still grounds for debate. If you say something, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a reply.
    I appreciate your points.

    However, your last paragraph comes off as very defensive as if I proposed the video as a debate. The goal of the video was to sum up the roller coaster of emotions I felt from my pre-cynicism, to first impressions to my overall resolve.

    I also feel like I should point out that in a 10 minute video, I spent more time talking positively about the game and only 2-2:30 of it negatively. Some folk are acting like I hated the game which I think is totally unfair, I just think it has issues that prevented it from being a "classic", hence the DooM 1 comparison.

    I'm happy that this video is getting people talking though, even if I'm in the minority. Thanks for watching, next video will be 100x better.
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  22. Post #22
    Ask me about my Marvel/DC fetish
    AaronM202's Avatar
    May 2010
    26,728 Posts
    On the topic of the video, honestly dont think it was ever possible for Doom 4 to match the original Doom. Live up to the legacy? Sure. But be equal to or better than it? No way.

    Doom is like, the ultimate example of lightning in a bottle. The time it was released and the context of everything around it, the technology pumped into it that was groundbreaking for its time, the gameplay design, the look, hell even the method of distribution. The fact that this one game still has not just a strong but thriving mod community over 23 years later says something to just how special a case it was (that and releasing engine source code), and i really cant see anything like it happening again. At least for a long, long time.
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  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    Mining Bill's Avatar
    March 2011
    2,235 Posts
    IMO doom has an untouchable level of gameplay purity, there isn't a single element that you can remove without detracting from the whole of the product. Maybe not to the degree of Tetris, but Doom approaches being perfect on the gameplay level. doom 2 less so because bad maps, and fuck archviles.
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  24. Post #24
    I don't think people look critically enough at the original Doom. It's considered sacred and almost any time I hear anyone talk about it they rarely acknowledge that it even has any flaws at all. Doom 4 was never going to be better than Doom to people like this because they're adults, with adult perspectives, who have 0 nostalgia for the new Doom. In a sense it's more like he's comparing Doom 4 to his childhood than comparing it to Doom. No shit it loses. Compare modern anything to your childhood and chances are it's going to fail.

    I wanna see people actually critique Doom 1 as a game, not put on that nostalgic tone of voice and make love to it because they played it as children.
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  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    HWECQI's Avatar
    May 2009
    5,490 Posts
    Considering DOOM 1 was one of the most influential games in history, it's kinda hard to imagine DOOM 4 would ever be able to come close to it. Hell, even DOOM II didn't really. It was great and but the first one is what really shook everything up.

    What's important is that it really continues the legacy and keeps the series alive I feel, which DOOM 4 very much does. I would even go so far to say that it's also affecting the FPS genre in a major way, given how much reflection has been done on how it was able to marry the old with the new.

    I'm honestly super happy I've gotten to see Wolfenstein and DOOM come back and both of them be pretty fantastic experiences
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  26. Post #26
    Gold Member
    Paramud's Avatar
    November 2008
    8,398 Posts

  27. Post #27
    Ask me about my Marvel/DC fetish
    AaronM202's Avatar
    May 2010
    26,728 Posts
    I don't think people look critically enough at the original Doom. It's considered sacred and almost any time I hear anyone talk about it they rarely acknowledge that it even has any flaws at all. Doom 4 was never going to be better than Doom to people like this because they're adults, with adult perspectives, who have 0 nostalgia for the new Doom. In a sense it's more like he's comparing Doom 4 to his childhood than comparing it to Doom. No shit it loses. Compare modern anything to your childhood and chances are it's going to fail.

    I wanna see people actually critique Doom 1 as a game, not put on that nostalgic tone of voice and make love to it because they played it as children.
    I only managed to get my hands on and play Doom for the first time a year ago (one of those games i somehow never got a chance to play beforehand, though dont misunderstand, ive known what the fuck Doom was since like 2005) and i completely agree with what everyone says about it, its nigh-perfect. Critiquing it is hard because theres honestly very little in the way of flaws that arent just minor nitpicks, the biggest i can come up with is the Spider-Mastermind was a flaccid end boss, and that near-perfection is because the game is really, really simple. It gets compared to it a lot, but it really is practically a game of 3D chess with a 90s metal hell theme.
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  28. Post #28
    Gold Member
    Talishmar's Avatar
    March 2007
    7,078 Posts
    Doom 4, like almost any game, would of course greatly benefit from modding support. My point was that Doom mods are not strictly Doom. If the title was 'Is Doom 4 Better than Old Doom (with Mods)' then that would be more clear. As it stands, he's bringing in outside-context content to back up his point about the quality of Doom.

    Edited:



    They're not integral enough for the game to force them upon you. You may get heaps of weapon upgrades, but the game doesn't stop until you allocate them. You can fail rune challenges or simply not even reach them.
    He's not saying that old Doom is better because of its mods, but rather old Doom is better because of its mod support, which is entirely fair.
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  29. Post #29
    Gold Member
    e_k_M's Avatar
    August 2009
    1,294 Posts
    i really want that afraid of monsters radio track for nostalgia.
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  30. Post #30
    Fire Fucker
    Rebi's Avatar
    March 2011
    1,247 Posts
    IMO doom has an untouchable level of gameplay purity, there isn't a single element that you can remove without detracting from the whole of the product. Maybe not to the degree of Tetris, but Doom approaches being perfect on the gameplay level. doom 2 less so because bad maps, and fuck archviles.
    I think you could remove the instakill crushing ceilings that do nothing but make you redo the entire level despite the death not being a result of a lapse in the players ability.
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  31. Post #31
    Ask me about my Marvel/DC fetish
    AaronM202's Avatar
    May 2010
    26,728 Posts
    I think you could remove the instakill crushing ceilings that do nothing but make you redo the entire level despite the death not being a result of a lapse in the players ability.
    Get good.
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  32. Post #32
    Gold Member
    Marphy Black's Avatar
    December 2004
    1,398 Posts
    I think you could remove the instakill crushing ceilings that do nothing but make you redo the entire level despite the death not being a result of a lapse in the players ability.
    Care to name any instances of these instakill crushers?

  33. Post #33
    IFawDown's Avatar
    November 2014
    55 Posts
    Care to name any instances of these instakill crushers?
    As a kid I hated the ones early in Plutonia Experiment off of Final Doom.

  34. Post #34
    Gold Member
    HWECQI's Avatar
    May 2009
    5,490 Posts
    I don't think people look critically enough at the original Doom. It's considered sacred and almost any time I hear anyone talk about it they rarely acknowledge that it even has any flaws at all. Doom 4 was never going to be better than Doom to people like this because they're adults, with adult perspectives, who have 0 nostalgia for the new Doom. In a sense it's more like he's comparing Doom 4 to his childhood than comparing it to Doom. No shit it loses. Compare modern anything to your childhood and chances are it's going to fail.

    I wanna see people actually critique Doom 1 as a game, not put on that nostalgic tone of voice and make love to it because they played it as children.
    If the appreciation for it was all nostalgia I don't think we'd still be talking about DOOM as much as we do. It's hard to really ignore that it put down the foundation of FPS's with its enemy and weapon designs which still work rather well today. Judging it within the context of the time, it's hard to really find anything egregious.

    My main complaint with DOOM I and II is that the mazelike maps can get pretty tedious to navigate. Automap helps, but I definitely had a lot of moments of downtime in maps just trying to find where the right door I was looking for was or that kinda thing. I think that's one strength of DOOM 2016 is you don't get lost nearly as much. I also think the Shotgun and the Super Shotgun end up being what you wanna use 90% of the time, and the Chaingun isn't as punchy as I'd like.

    But beyond that, it's still very solid today in my opinion.
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