1. Post #161
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    Engineer, by design, is only going to be at his best when defending, so is only powerful in certain situations, and that's perfectly fine.

    Spy, by design, is sadly less effective the more competent the enemy team is. I'm not sure if you could buff him at all without making him too good in lower levels of play.

    Pyro is just... a mess. He's pretty useless by design and even years of buffs have still left him in a weird place where's he's better as a support class with his airblast than as an offensive class. I suppose when 9v9 begins he'll be more useful as you can afford to give up a slot for someone to guard the main classes and sentries from explosives, and watch out for Spies. Again, I honestly don't know what you could do to make Pyro better without running the risk of making him too powerful at lower levels.
    Buffing pyro's default speed or HP would be a great mistake that's for sure. Hmm what if valve would fix particle hit detections first, it's most affected weapon by lag in the entire tf2. Usually in TF2 like games pyro adequate is second most tank-y character in game.

    What if pyro's stock health was 200 but with back burner and few others would be reduced to standard value .... that's bad idea I know.
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  2. Post #162
    Gold Member
    Oizen's Avatar
    August 2013
    6,674 Posts
    Well then I got question to you all.

    What would pyro, engi, spy would need to be more viable in MM/comp.

    Engi I have noticed is usefully on with mini sentries and pomoson.

    Pyro have been mentioned above.

    I have never seen usefully spy in MM at all. Mostly due people's expirnace and communication.
    IMO, Pyro and Spy need mobility. Engineer is a different case entirely.


    Pyro is a broken mess, and is my least favorite class because of it. He's really...terrible at everything.
    He has these weird gimmick crit weapons that are his way to get to higher damage, but despite these awkward combos he still ends up doing less than Soldier/Scout or Demo do in a single shot.

    His hitboxes are wildly inconsistent, Airblast's hitbox is somehow unreliable but also too fucking big, Flamethrower hitboxes act very strangely to lag and extend randomly.

    For Pyro ever to be taken seriously, he needs a mobility tool. Probably an airblast jump or something, as it sits right now he's literally useless. He's no ambush class, the only kills I see pyro get are awkward corner encounters where people accidentally crash head first into pyro, if pyros attacking mid he's most certainly going to lose.



    Having a Spy is a flat downgrade to having a sniper in MM.

    Sniper can get instant kills across the map and still be safe.
    Spy has to sneak behind enemy lines, get a stab and then somehow NOT die after this. Ususally after the stab, Spy dies. While Sniper is free to get another Quickscope. Good Snipers can shut down a map, Good spies at best are a mild inconvenience.

    It doesn't help that every class Spy is going to face in Matchmaking, Demo,Scout,Soldier, Medic are all inherently better at moving than he is.

    Spy is probably the only class that relies BOTH on having your enemy team be really stupid, and your team be really good. Spy is at a disadvantage in every encounter he has if the enemy team knows there is a spy, and considering its very easy in the current MM to know what classes the enemy team is, he's just not that viable.


    Engineer is probably the best of the 3 classes here, but the current MM just doesn't give any mode where he shines.
    6s is pretty fast paced, engineer is not a fast paced class. Best thing you can do is run mini sentry.

    Engineer will gain some steam if we get MM ctf or payload.
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  3. Post #163
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    IMO, Pyro and Spy need mobility. Engineer is a different case entirely.


    Pyro is a broken mess, and is my least favorite class because of it. He's really...terrible at everything.
    He has these weird gimmick crit weapons that are his way to get to higher damage, but despite these awkward combos he still ends up doing less than Soldier/Scout or Demo do in a single shot.

    His hitboxes are wildly inconsistent, Airblast's hitbox is somehow unreliable but also too fucking big, Flamethrower hitboxes act very strangely to lag and extend randomly.

    For Pyro ever to be taken seriously, he needs a mobility tool. Probably an airblast jump or something, as it sits right now he's literally useless. He's no ambush class, the only kills I see pyro get are awkward corner encounters where people accidentally crash head first into pyro, if pyros attacking mid he's most certainly going to lose.



    Having a Spy is a flat downgrade to having a sniper in MM.

    Sniper can get instant kills across the map and still be safe.
    Spy has to sneak behind enemy lines, get a stab and then somehow NOT die after this. Ususally after the stab, Spy dies. While Sniper is free to get another Quickscope. Good Snipers can shut down a map, Good spies at best are a mild inconvenience.

    It doesn't help that every class Spy is going to face in Matchmaking, Demo,Scout,Soldier, Medic are all inherently better at moving than he is.

    Spy is probably the only class that relies BOTH on having your enemy team be really stupid, and your team be really good. Spy is at a disadvantage in every encounter he has if the enemy team knows there is a spy, and considering its very easy in the current MM to know what classes the enemy team is, he's just not that viable.


    Engineer is probably the best of the 3 classes here, but the current MM just doesn't give any mode where he shines.
    6s is pretty fast paced, engineer is not a fast paced class. Best thing you can do is run mini sentry.

    Engineer will gain some steam if we get MM ctf or payload.
    Well to be fair Engie is pretty good at koth maps already, and people forget that he may ruin uber too.
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  4. Post #164
    RedDagger's Avatar
    March 2016
    141 Posts
    Well then I got question to you all.

    What would pyro, engi, spy would need to be more viable in MM/comp.

    Engi I have noticed is usefully on with mini sentries and pomoson.

    Pyro have been mentioned above.

    I have never seen usefully spy in MM at all. Mostly due people's expirnace and communication.
    they're all viable in certain situations already, there's nothing wrong with having some classes not run full time considering what they are - specialists as opposed to the generalists that are run full time. imo they don't need to be made 'more viable' since they're already good at what they do.
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  5. Post #165
    Rajikaru's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,728 Posts
    Well then I got question to you all.

    What would pyro, engi, spy would need to be more viable in MM/comp.

    Engi I have noticed is usefully on with mini sentries and pomoson.

    Pyro have been mentioned above.

    I have never seen usefully spy in MM at all. Mostly due people's expirnace and communication.
    Engineer just can't be viable in both pubs and competitive scenes. It's a fact. Competitive 6s for TF2 is made to be streamlined, fast-paced, skill-based experience. Engineer is designed as a roadblock that requires teamwork and patience to break. He's the sole reason Highlander is so long to end in A/D/Payload maps.

    Spy is pretty much only there as an antithesis to Engineer, he would be useless at worst and an annoyance to the enemy team at best in competitive 6s.

    If they emphasized Pyro's utility as an Uber/projectile spammer more and made him less "hold M1 to win fights", he might become actually viable. His airblast is incredibly useful.
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  6. Post #166
    sponge7325's Avatar
    September 2015
    322 Posts
    I tend to play Medic a lot when it comes to competitive, and I have to say, nerfing the Quick-Fix would break my heart. I know that it's unbalanced for 6s and all that, but honestly it's the only thing that keeps me actually playing Medic. Being able to jump with your pocket, go scout speeds, and healing at speeds that don't leave you twiddling your thumbs, just sitting there waiting for your patients little green number to go up to a decent level. Not being able to do these things would pretty much kill me playing Medic and actually having fun. I know that a nerf pretty much HAS to happen, seeing the Quick-Fix's widespread use, but I really think that Valve should soften the blow by at least making the other Medi-guns stand up a bit more to it as well. Give every Medi-gun the pocket-following upside, increase heal speeds a tad, and bam, normal Medic play isn't quite so mundane, and I have a reason to use the other Medi-guns.

    If buffing the other Medi-guns is too far fetched, how about this: Just get rid of Quick-Fix's faster ubercharge rate. That way, any other medi-gun's uber can easy knock out the Quick-Fix's uber, and the Quick-Fix becomes what it should have been all along; a Medi-gun that is focused more on actually healing than turning the tides with ubercharges. This keeps the Quick-Fix viable in competitive to some extent, while also making the other medi-guns have an actually good reason to be used.

    Honestly though, I get the feeling that Valve will end up nerfing the Quick-Fix to oblivion and never touch it again. And I really don't want that. Quick-Fix is my baby, man!
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  7. Post #167
    G=4//\/\3!2's Avatar
    June 2015
    555 Posts
    Since we're now shifting into weapon nerfs and buffs I think I should pull this up

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  8. Post #168
    Untailygean's Avatar
    October 2014
    169 Posts
    I used engineer in mm once because there was 2 scouts constantly backcapping and being annoying. It works well.

  9. Post #169
    Cornish's Avatar
    June 2014
    920 Posts
    I used engineer in mm once because there was 2 scouts constantly backcapping and being annoying. It works well.
    My friend ran level 3s in an mm match on viaduct and placed the level 3 on the point

    Needless to say it worked very well

  10. Post #170
    Jboby1's Avatar
    November 2014
    632 Posts
    How do I get a Gibus?
    You gotta beat the everloving shit out of someone wearing it, and you have to do it at least 3 times in a row without them killing you.
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  11. Post #171
    RedDagger's Avatar
    March 2016
    141 Posts
    I tend to play Medic a lot when it comes to competitive, and I have to say, nerfing the Quick-Fix would break my heart. I know that it's unbalanced for 6s and all that, but honestly it's the only thing that keeps me actually playing Medic. Being able to jump with your pocket, go scout speeds, and healing at speeds that don't leave you twiddling your thumbs, just sitting there waiting for your patients little green number to go up to a decent level. Not being able to do these things would pretty much kill me playing Medic and actually having fun. I know that a nerf pretty much HAS to happen, seeing the Quick-Fix's widespread use, but I really think that Valve should soften the blow by at least making the other Medi-guns stand up a bit more to it as well. Give every Medi-gun the pocket-following upside, increase heal speeds a tad, and bam, normal Medic play isn't quite so mundane, and I have a reason to use the other Medi-guns.
    I feel the quick fix is more powerful in mm than comp or lobbies because there's less/no strategy going on - with stock you generally expect people to work around the combo, for example before a push overheal people then all go in while you have an uber advantage, whereas in mm uber advantages don't really matter because everyone's kinda scattered so you just kinda use it whenever. All soldiers are roamers, scouts overextend, so you use the quickfix to heal them when the swing by instead of working as a combo. This is of course a generalisation and not all games work like that, but the higher heal rate makes it basically the only option in my experience - even the lower overheal doesn't really matter in rollouts because, well, only one person ever seems to know how to rollout.

    Not to say it shouldn't be nerfed, but at the moment a nerf on the uber might not be enough imo.

  12. Post #172
    Gold Member
    Oizen's Avatar
    August 2013
    6,674 Posts
    QuickFix is only powerful because the weapon is designed around being countered by instantkill moves, with Random Crits out, the only things that can really stop it now is Kritzkreig, a Sticky Trap, or a Sniper.

    I think even if its faster uber rate was removed, it would still be the go to MM medigun.
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  13. Post #173
    Starlight 456's Avatar
    March 2014
    4,119 Posts
    Since we're now shifting into weapon nerfs and buffs I think I should pull this up
    imo banning weapons is something for community competitive games to do, not Valve-run competitive. Community games can't balance weapons, so when something is OP, they can just say no, you're not allowed to use that. Valve can balance the weapons, so they should balance them, rather than effectively shrugging their shoulders and giving up
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  14. Post #174
    Magypsy's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,744 Posts
    imo banning weapons is something for community competitive games to do, not Valve-run competitive. Community games can't balance weapons, so when something is OP, they can just say no, you're not allowed to use that. Valve can balance the weapons, so they should balance them, rather than effectively shrugging their shoulders and giving up
    I don't really trust Valve to balance the weapons anymore. The weapon balances at Christmas ranged from good to bizarre. They completely changed the Claidheamh Mor, but think that the Sandman has been fine for 7 years now.

  15. Post #175
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    I don't really trust Valve to balance the weapons anymore. The weapon balances at Christmas ranged from good to bizarre. They completely changed the Claidheamh Mor, but think that the Sandman has been fine for 7 years now.
    Sandman is just too iconic to change at this point just as blut sauger ,kgb and ubersaw.
    I Am not saying it's well made weapon but I know worse offfenders than this thing.
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  16. Post #176
    Magypsy's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,744 Posts
    Sandman is just too iconic to change at this point just as blut sauger ,kgb and ubersaw.
    I Am not saying it's well made weapon but I know worse offfenders than this thing.
    Okay, what weapon is more annoying to fight against? At least you can still shoot people when Natascha slows you down and the Pomson only fucks over 2 classes as opposed to 9.

  17. Post #177
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    Okay, what weapon is more annoying to fight against? At least you can still shoot people when Natascha slows you down and the Pomson only fucks over 2 classes as opposed to 9.
    well this is just my personal list but here it goes:

    - Any shield on demoman, just whole concept of demoknight is just disgusting abomination, free charge, with free
    - Soda popper, free mini crits were annoying but flying scouts are even worse
    - Liberty Launcher, default splash on much faster projectiles. This weapon gives way to little space and time to attempt avoiding.
    - Beggars bazooka, pretty much the same, it's better on larger empty areas but still annoying as fuck.
    - Force a nature. No just no.
    - Loose cannon. Well I understand it requires skill and timing to get decent damage out of it, but I just hate to fight against it, you can never tell when bombs will explode.
    - Rescure rangers. Once again it's not a bad weapon, it's very good one but often in pub environment it makes sentries almost impossible to take down.
    - Concheror + black box,combo, it's annoying as heck to take down such soldier, I have endless battles with such soldiers ending up in him escaping without scratch.
    - Phlog, weird weapon, and free uber + critz is bit annoying, forces either to attempt to abadon the area or respawn.
    - Razorback. Every time I decide to go spy, every sniper got this crap.

    People will hate some thees comments but thees are just my personal annoyances. I am not saying thees things are OP or something like that. I just don't enjoy to fight against thees.
    Also I will state the ultimate heresy and say that I like pomson. I do agree weapon focused on screwing with only certain class is rather bad game-play idea.
    Sandman is rather low on my annoyance list, but all of this as I said is just my own feelings.
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  18. Post #178
    X marks it's Avatar
    February 2014
    589 Posts
    well this is just my personal list but here it goes
    I think the only ones that are agreeable is the Beggars, FoN, Loose Cannon and the Black Box + Conch combo for obvious reasons.
    The others are just nit-picking and easy to counter to be totally honest.
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  19. Post #179
    Rajikaru's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,728 Posts
    Sandman is just too iconic to change at this point just as blut sauger ,kgb and ubersaw.
    I Am not saying it's well made weapon but I know worse offfenders than this thing.
    Demoman's absurd sticky damage was "too iconic", as was Heavy's damage ramp-up and minigun accuracy.

    Then they were both changed.

    Give a better reason.

  20. Post #180
    ikes's Avatar
    March 2014
    4,598 Posts
    you guys think one of the contract updates will add Fists skins? Like different patterning for his gloves?

    that would be amazing.
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  21. Post #181
    Magypsy's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,744 Posts
    you guys think one of the contract updates will add Fists skins? Like different patterning for his gloves?

    that would be amazing.
    No, they're going to paint the Heavy's nails.
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  22. Post #182
    Starlight 456's Avatar
    March 2014
    4,119 Posts
    well this is just my personal list but here it goes:

    - Any shield on demoman, just whole concept of demoknight is just disgusting abomination, free charge, with free
    - Soda popper, free mini crits were annoying but flying scouts are even worse
    - Liberty Launcher, default splash on much faster projectiles. This weapon gives way to little space and time to attempt avoiding.
    - Beggars bazooka, pretty much the same, it's better on larger empty areas but still annoying as fuck.
    - Force a nature. No just no.
    - Loose cannon. Well I understand it requires skill and timing to get decent damage out of it, but I just hate to fight against it, you can never tell when bombs will explode.
    - Rescure rangers. Once again it's not a bad weapon, it's very good one but often in pub environment it makes sentries almost impossible to take down.
    - Concheror + black box,combo, it's annoying as heck to take down such soldier, I have endless battles with such soldiers ending up in him escaping without scratch.
    - Phlog, weird weapon, and free uber + critz is bit annoying, forces either to attempt to abadon the area or respawn.
    - Razorback. Every time I decide to go spy, every sniper got this crap.

    People will hate some thees comments but thees are just my personal annoyances. I am not saying thees things are OP or something like that. I just don't enjoy to fight against thees.
    Also I will state the ultimate heresy and say that I like pomson. I do agree weapon focused on screwing with only certain class is rather bad game-play idea.
    Sandman is rather low on my annoyance list, but all of this as I said is just my own feelings.
    Demoknight isn't perfect, but he's melee only, and that's a challenge in a game full of ranged weapons. Sure, you can use the GL, but you've given up a major amount of mobility and lethality in the stickybomb launcher.

    The soda popper was way OP before and imo it's fine. The set is all about jump mobility (Soda Popper + Winger + Atomizer) and now it fits in with the rest quite nicely, where before it was just "i unno give him mini crits".

    The LL is in a fine spot, too. It's great for rocket jumpers who still want the shotgun secondary, you just do less damage as a tradeoff.

    I barely ever see the BB and I've never used it, so I can't say.

    The FaN is annoying to fight against, but if you changed it, then it really wouldn't be the FaN any more. It's been a knocker-backer with low ammo since it was added.

    Loose Cannon takes skill to use if you want to land double donks, but it could use less knockback. Other than that, I think it's pretty acceptable.

    The RR is again, fine. The biggest debuff is that your shots are projectiles instead of hitscan, making it a pain in the ass to hit anyone too far away. Engie needs something to give him an edge, anyways. He has so many classes that are practically made to destroy his stuff that being able to heal and move things at a range is extremely helpful.

    I will agree that the concheror is hard to fight against, but I think that's the point. If you see a Conch soldier, take him out before he builds his charge.

    Phlog is still annoying, but not as bad as people say. It would be fine if they made it so only phlog damage increased Mmph.

    The razorback is fine, too. If a sniper has it, revolver him down or just pick a different target. If it's making you think twice, than it's working as intended.

  23. Post #183
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    Demoman's absurd sticky damage was "too iconic", as was Heavy's damage ramp-up and minigun accuracy.

    Then they were both changed.

    Give a better reason.
    I've never said being iconic is a reason to not nerf/buff something.

    I have no idea how sandman could be balanced, as long it will keep some sort of stun or movement impairing effect, all of you won't be happy.
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  24. Post #184
    Dennab
    November 2014
    458 Posts
    well i just got a matchmaking pass, how do i use it? when i got it i was expecting to get a button on my menu but i didn't.

  25. Post #185
    Gold Member
    Freeze's Avatar
    October 2011
    4,597 Posts
    well i just got a matchmaking pass, how do i use it? when i got it i was expecting to get a button on my menu but i didn't.
    you should be getting a button. try restarting the game?

  26. Post #186
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    Demoknight isn't perfect, but he's melee only, and that's a challenge in a game full of ranged weapons. Sure, you can use the GL, but you've given up a major amount of mobility and lethality in the stickybomb launcher.

    The soda popper was way OP before and imo it's fine. The set is all about jump mobility (Soda Popper + Winger + Atomizer) and now it fits in with the rest quite nicely, where before it was just "i unno give him mini crits".

    The LL is in a fine spot, too. It's great for rocket jumpers who still want the shotgun secondary, you just do less damage as a tradeoff.

    I barely ever see the BB and I've never used it, so I can't say.

    The FaN is annoying to fight against, but if you changed it, then it really wouldn't be the FaN any more. It's been a knocker-backer with low ammo since it was added.

    Loose Cannon takes skill to use if you want to land double donks, but it could use less knockback. Other than that, I think it's pretty acceptable.

    The RR is again, fine. The biggest debuff is that your shots are projectiles instead of hitscan, making it a pain in the ass to hit anyone too far away. Engie needs something to give him an edge, anyways. He has so many classes that are practically made to destroy his stuff that being able to heal and move things at a range is extremely helpful.

    I will agree that the concheror is hard to fight against, but I think that's the point. If you see a Conch soldier, take him out before he builds his charge.

    Phlog is still annoying, but not as bad as people say. It would be fine if they made it so only phlog damage increased Mmph.

    The razorback is fine, too. If a sniper has it, revolver him down or just pick a different target. If it's making you think twice, than it's working as intended.
    Agreed to some of the stuff, but not the demoknight, there is nothing that could make me accept that, that thing. Side note I do admit thees things are not broken or do require skill to use, I just don't like fighting those at all.
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  27. Post #187
    Gold Member
    DrCactus's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,318 Posts
    I've said it before, but I'd like it if phlog was reworked a bit.

    Mmmph also gives your melee crits during the duration as well (could lead to some fun risk/reward synergy with weapons like the third degree, or Backscratcher)

    Secondary weapons will only build mmph from direct hit damage, and not afterburn damage (mainly to make the scorchshot spam playstyle less effective)
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  28. Post #188
    Mort Stroodle's Avatar
    June 2014
    6,541 Posts
    Honestly sandman should just do decent damage at range with the ball that scales with distance, and have that be the end of it. Gives scout a ranged option at the expense of health. A stun item that scales with distance doesn't even make sense for scout. What good is a moonshot when the weapon you can actually deal good damage with is a scattergun? The stun wears off before you can even get into effective range.
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  29. Post #189
    Rajikaru's Avatar
    August 2014
    1,728 Posts
    Honestly sandman should just do decent damage at range with the ball that scales with distance, and have that be the end of it. Gives scout a ranged option at the expense of health. A stun item that scales with distance doesn't even make sense for scout. What good is a moonshot when the weapon you can actually deal good damage with is a scattergun? The stun wears off before you can even get into effective range.
    The problem with that is such a weapon already exists - the Wrap Assassin. It currently deals pitiful damage and should be balanced first.
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  30. Post #190

    January 2016
    540 Posts
    You gotta beat the everloving shit out of someone wearing it, and you have to do it at least 3 times in a row without them killing you.
    I thought that was the case but I have dominated a lot of players in my 330 hours and one of them must have had a gibus surely?

    In fact, it's probably more likely that the quality of player I am likely to dominate is sporting a gibus.

    Edited:

    well this is just my personal list but here it goes:

    - Any shield on demoman, just whole concept of demoknight is just disgusting abomination, free charge, with free
    - Soda popper, free mini crits were annoying but flying scouts are even worse
    - Liberty Launcher, default splash on much faster projectiles. This weapon gives way to little space and time to attempt avoiding.
    - Beggars bazooka, pretty much the same, it's better on larger empty areas but still annoying as fuck.
    - Force a nature. No just no.
    - Loose cannon. Well I understand it requires skill and timing to get decent damage out of it, but I just hate to fight against it, you can never tell when bombs will explode.
    - Rescure rangers. Once again it's not a bad weapon, it's very good one but often in pub environment it makes sentries almost impossible to take down.
    - Concheror + black box,combo, it's annoying as heck to take down such soldier, I have endless battles with such soldiers ending up in him escaping without scratch.
    - Phlog, weird weapon, and free uber + critz is bit annoying, forces either to attempt to abadon the area or respawn.
    - Razorback. Every time I decide to go spy, every sniper got this crap.

    People will hate some thees comments but thees are just my personal annoyances. I am not saying thees things are OP or something like that. I just don't enjoy to fight against thees.
    Also I will state the ultimate heresy and say that I like pomson. I do agree weapon focused on screwing with only certain class is rather bad game-play idea.
    Sandman is rather low on my annoyance list, but all of this as I said is just my own feelings.
    For me, the Dead Ringer is worse than all of thus. Monotonous crap to play against.

    I also hate the Ubersaw. It crits me pretty much every time, I swear.

  31. Post #191
    ikes's Avatar
    March 2014
    4,598 Posts
    Honestly sandman should just do decent damage at range with the ball that scales with distance, and have that be the end of it. Gives scout a ranged option at the expense of health. A stun item that scales with distance doesn't even make sense for scout. What good is a moonshot when the weapon you can actually deal good damage with is a scattergun? The stun wears off before you can even get into effective range.
    that would just be worse than the pistol.
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  32. Post #192
    Gold Member
    Oizen's Avatar
    August 2013
    6,674 Posts
    I've said it before, but I'd like it if phlog was reworked a bit.

    Mmmph also gives your melee crits during the duration as well (could lead to some fun risk/reward synergy with weapons like the third degree, or Backscratcher)

    Secondary weapons will only build mmph from direct hit damage, and not afterburn damage (mainly to make the scorchshot spam playstyle less effective)
    I really, really dont want any more gimmick crit weapons for pyro. I think by now we've learned that gimmick crits aren't really fun to play against, and they really don't lend themselves to making a competently designed class.
    I've ranted in the past about various weapons, but the kind that I hate more than anything else will always be "100% Crits for preforming easy task"

    But the problem with the design you bring up is that it would just force Pyros to WM+1 or run in and melee people just to recieve the same reward the phlog currently gives,
    And why would you bother with melee crits when Flamethrower Crits have much more range?
    Only salvation for Pyro would be a complete overhaul of everything he has, which I dont think Valve will ever do.
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  33. Post #193
    Gold Member
    DrCactus's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,318 Posts
    I'm not suggesting we remove the phlog crits for only melee crits, but we just add the melee crits as an option. "Force pyros to W+M1" yeah, how dare a pyro use his primary. Melee crits have their uses. Powerjack, third Degree and to an extent, the back scratcher provide a decent risk/reward (third degree's would be most noticeable in MVM).

    And honestly, pyro doesn't really need a complete overhaul. He needs his primary source of damage to actually be reliable, which means they have to fix the flamethrower's particle system to allow a skilled player to be able to benefit from it. that's why players became so reliant on crit weapons like the flaregun and pre nerf Axtinguisher: using the flamethrower for damage just isn't worth it.
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  34. Post #194
    Cpt. Cakes's Avatar
    November 2014
    979 Posts
    well i just got a matchmaking pass, how do i use it? when i got it i was expecting to get a button on my menu but i didn't.
    You need premium, and the mobile authenticator.

    It should look like this on the menu



    You don't need to do anything, as long as it's in your inventory it should appear.

  35. Post #195
    Stric_Matic's Avatar
    June 2014
    716 Posts
    I also hate the Ubersaw. It crits me pretty much every time, I swear.
    The Ubersaw really doesn't have an inherently higher crit chance than any other melee weapon. Starts at 15% and can scale up to 60% if the Medic's patient has done 800 or more damage in the last 20 seconds.

    So it doesn't really matter whether he's using the Ubersaw, the stock Bonesaw or any other melee, they all have the same base and enhanced crit rate.


    The reason Medics seem to melee crit that often is because 1) They're more likely than most other classes to use a melee for self-defense in a pub; and 2) Medics can gain an increased melee crit rate more easily and safely than most classes by simply attaching themselves to a good pocket and/or pubstomping player.

    You're likely getting too close to Medics that are part of a successful Medic-patient combo. If he spends a lot of time healing a rampaging Heavy/Soldier/Demo that's dealing loads of damage to your team, expect them to have a very high melee crit rate if you come close enough for them to try and melee you.

  36. Post #196
    Whiskered's Avatar
    July 2011
    591 Posts
    that would just be worse than the pistol.
    and it wouldn't have much reason to exist anymore.

    Problem with sandman is that's core feature is to stun things at distance. Geting rid of stun would make it not a sandman anymore. It's like taking away ability to generate uber on hit form ubersaw.

    Slow down would be almost as bad and would render sand man useless and also slow down is broken in tf2.

  37. Post #197
    Gold Member
    Oizen's Avatar
    August 2013
    6,674 Posts
    I'm not suggesting we remove the phlog crits for only melee crits, but we just add the melee crits as an option. "Force pyros to W+M1" yeah, how dare a pyro use his primary. Melee crits have their uses. Powerjack, third Degree and to an extent, the back scratcher provide a decent risk/reward (third degree's would be most noticeable in MVM).

    And honestly, pyro doesn't really need a complete overhaul. He needs his primary source of damage to actually be reliable, which means they have to fix the flamethrower's particle system to allow a skilled player to be able to benefit from it. that's why players became so reliant on crit weapons like the flaregun and pre nerf Axtinguisher: using the flamethrower for damage just isn't worth it.
    W+M1 Pyro is laughed at because its not viable, anyone who's actually competent at the game can beat it.
    If you want the phlog to only give melee crits, that's just even worse than it is now.
    Not only would primary weapon crits do better, it would turn pyro into a even worse version of DemoKnight.
    Without the air blast, I really cannot see any major utility to melee only crits for pyro.


    And yes, Pyro does need a complete overhaul. I guess I'll go into why. Time for another wall of text I guess.

    As you said, his primary weapon damage isn't viable. Heavy trumps what he does with it at a longer range. But the issues with it goes beyond just the damage.

    But its hitboxes are insanely unreliable, and lag and latency can affect how they function severely,
    two pyros can have different length flamethrowers based entirely on the lag of the server.
    This is just bullshit. Plain and simple, there is no skill at all with this. One pyro is literally just better than another pyro.
    I do not know what fixing this entails, but its a pretty severe issue on the class. The video later goes own to show it does happen on live valve servers too, with little luck on actually controlling it.

    The complete desync between the particles and hitboxes can make Pyro incredibly confusing to fight,
    but it can also hurt pyro in fights
    Even a skilled pyro who understands how flamethrower hitboxes flow are going to be leaving a good chunk of it to luck.


    Next we'll talk about Airblast, this is the real reason Pyro exists in this team based game, everything else is just feels like Filler.
    Airblast is a very useful tool pyro has that lets him deny enemy ubers and reflect projectiles. This is his true primary attack.

    Except, its not even really skill based, Contrary to popular belief, there isnt even aim to it for Reflecting, you just press M2 and the projectile goes to where your cross hair is.
    Thie Hitbox is even so big you can reflect things behind you, things your not even facing
    Despite it being easy, its still not that good of a counter against Soldier or Demoman, It pushes stickies like 4 feet, but they're still easily a threat.
    Soldier is mobile enough to jump at the pyro in awkward ways for reflecting not to matter, and if he's bringing a shotgun pyro is just out of luck.

    Denying ubers is as simple as walking towards someone and pressing m2 a bunch of times, theres nothing really intuitive about it at all.
    You can just hold people in corners by pressing m2 a bunch, it doesn't really sound like fun at all.

    The entire Physics behind air blast is pretty wonky as well, air blasting people running away from you to catch up, how it completely eats any sort of momentum is just really weird.

    Valve has thrown around the idea that Pyro is meant to be an Ambush class, despite Pyro being terrible at it.
    If you want a real ambush class, you play Soldier, specifically the Roaming Soldier. With his gunboats and rocket jumps he can get behind enemy lines, kill people, and get out.
    Pyro has no mobility tools at all, (despite air blast sounding perfect for some sort of jump tool)
    He can't position himself in any areas where he could actually ambush anyone.
    All pyro really can do is hope people awkwardly run into him face first in a confined area.
    Pyro has no tools to let him chase or fight in open areas, I can't really see him beating anyone in any of the Middle points of the current Matchmaking maps.


    Lastly, I want to talk about Pyro's Unlocks. And Pyro's unhealthy obsession with Critical Combos.
    Free crits for hitting somone after you airblast them
    Free crits for hitting someone while underwater
    Free crits for being behind someone
    Free crits for burning people to fill up a meter
    Free crits for extinguishing people
    Free crits for hitting burning people

    At this point I think the idea of Pyro and Crits is getting incredibly stale. Not to mention how ineffective most of them really are.
    The Flaregun for example, with its freecrit combo you can land 90 damage, thats great and all, but Soldier, Scout and Demoman can all hit harder faster than the time it takes to set up these critcombos.
    Not to mention a lot of these combos also aren't particularly skilled, again lets talk the Flare gun.
    You're literally holding someone still with airblast so you can shoot them for 90 damage.
    Paired with the fact how forgiving air blast hotboxes are, this all in all leads to a very low skill floor for these combos.

    The only good pyro unlocks I can think of that dont focus on freecrits are probably the Homewrecker and the Powerjack.
    The homewrecker probably being my favorite, since it promotes party play and in the right hands can really help out your team, changing how pyro plays slightly.


    I cant say I have the answers on how I'd fix pyro, but I do really like the idea of Air blasts hitbox being a cone rather than a huge box, but then also pushing pyro back whenever he uses it,
    leading to it being both a jumping and mobility tool, on top of requiring more skill and making locking other players in a corner harder with it. With said mobility, pyro would gain the ability to reach areas he couldn't before and actually pull off some ambushes.

    I apologize for the wall of text.
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  38. Post #198

    January 2016
    540 Posts
    The Ubersaw really doesn't have an inherently higher crit chance than any other melee weapon. Starts at 15% and can scale up to 60% if the Medic's patient has done 800 or more damage in the last 20 seconds.

    So it doesn't really matter whether he's using the Ubersaw, the stock Bonesaw or any other melee, they all have the same base and enhanced crit rate.


    The reason Medics seem to melee crit that often is because 1) They're more likely than most other classes to use a melee for self-defense in a pub; and 2) Medics can gain an increased melee crit rate more easily and safely than most classes by simply attaching themselves to a good pocket and/or pubstomping player.

    You're likely getting too close to Medics that are part of a successful Medic-patient combo. If he spends a lot of time healing a rampaging Heavy/Soldier/Demo that's dealing loads of damage to your team, expect them to have a very high melee crit rate if you come close enough for them to try and melee you.
    Seems a bit of an odd mechanic to have in the game really, but you're right that it's definitely at least part me that sucks.

    I think I also underestimate their range (and general melee range in the game) and speed. I'm running backwards as a scout and think I'm safe while I bag an easy meatshot but they get the hit.

  39. Post #199
    Mort Stroodle's Avatar
    June 2014
    6,541 Posts
    Ubersaw is worse as far as damage is concered compared to the other medic melees too.

  40. Post #200
    ikes's Avatar
    March 2014
    4,598 Posts
    -snip-