1. Post #201
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,779 Posts
    Thankfully nobody important in the industry listens to her.
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  2. Post #202
    Gold Member
    FlakAttack's Avatar
    November 2006
    6,684 Posts
    See, this is the problem I have with a lot of Sarkeesian's critics. As far as I know (and I've been following her for a while, before this video games debacle even started), she's never claimed to be a bastion of objective knowledge about anything. She's just giving her (fairly inoffensive) opinion about something that's pretty obvious. If you disagree with her, fine, but stop taking what she says to ridiculous extremes.
    Feminist Frequency posted:
    Anita lectures and presents at universities, conferences and game development studios internationally. She’s been a presenter and panelist at various fan, media and technology conferences and has also facilitated and taught multi-day filmmaking workshops. She has been interviewed and featured in publications such as Forbes, Wired, The Guardian, The Globe and Mail and The New York Times. Her videos are freely available via the Feminist Frequency YouTube channel and widely serve as educational tools in high school and university classrooms.
    She doesn't outright claim she is a bastion of objective knowledge, but she implies it - and more importantly - people are treating her like she is. Perception is everything.
    Why do you have to play a game to know what it's about? I can go watch a Last of Us LP and know everything there is to know about the game, since all she's ever talking about is the plot and character drama, and not the gameplay or the way it plays, then she would definitely be better off just watching videos.

    It's like saying that listening to an audiobook means you don't know what the book is about because you didn't play it in its original format.
    Audiobook to book is really not a good analogy to watching gameplay and actually playing it. Games are meant to be played, not watched (barring Metal Gear Solid 4).
    It's virtually agreed in most academic circles though that video gaming is full of sexism.
    She has the upper-hand because the academic argument is in her favor. Most academics - especially English, Gender Studies, Cinema Studies, Media Literacy, etc. - are very likely to support her work. Many graduate students - especially in the media literacy department - love her analysis, too. The head of media literacy studies at my University pretty much recommended her work to me, when I took a seminar on Internet Academia. There's a bias towards her and her work (and, while I'm inclined to support her, I would have to do more research myself before saying whether it's a fair or unfair bias).

    Regardless of the quality of her work (again, I can't say for myself; I haven't seen much of her videos), there's going to be an academic push in support of her because of what she's saying. Plus, there's a meek movement among technologically-inclined academics to disassemble MLA sourcing among multimedia, electronic works. Combine that with the fact that she is doing informal work that's free, and no one but the OPs (if that?) really cares if she sources her work.
    I found my professors were quite willing to talk about her until I showed them her thesis paper. Their tune changed quite a bit when they saw her thought process and how she has come to many of the conclusions she now spouts as fact. The only reason anyone listens to her at all is because she became e-famous due to feminist blogs and kickstarter.

    I urge you to actually watch her videos before seriously discussing this woman. It is incredible how lacking she actually is in the ability to understand and critique what is actually happening. She is like a child first discovering swear words: aware that they are bad but completely oblivious to their context, meaning, and usage. Everything she says sounds like it's copied word for word from TVTropes or the latest Jezebel post (or in one case, a speech by Hilary Clinton which she pretty much did copy word for word in a video).
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  3. Post #203
    Gold Member

    July 2010
    5,040 Posts
    The problem is when it's as ridiculously widespread as it is, since it perpetuates the idea that women are weak and need saving.
    This is the main issue. Compound that with the fact that many of these same video games treat women as consolation prizes (You beat Bowser, you win the Princess; You beat a motorcycle race, you get hot girls in bikinis; you defeat the Beauty & the Beast Corp, they pose for you; you finish MGS3, you get to see Eva half-naked in her cutscenes; etc. ), and it creates an environment where many women have more in common with rings and coins than protagonists and antagonists.
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  4. Post #204
    Here
    Dennab
    March 2013
    12,416 Posts
    Is there some reason that she shouldn't be allowed to do this?
    Not exactly bad but she used the kickstarter money to buy alot of games. She could have at least took her own footage.
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  5. Post #205
    Tweevle's Avatar
    July 2011
    829 Posts
    She doesn't outright claim she is a bastion of objective knowledge, but she implies it - and more importantly - people are treating her like she is. Perception is everything.
    See, I never got the implication that she's a bastion of objective knowledge from any of that, least of all her. The problem with saying somebody's implying something is that a lot of the implication can come from your own preconceptions. If you already dislike Sarkeesian I'm not surprised you take all kinds of negative implications from her work.
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  6. Post #206
    Gold Member

    July 2010
    5,040 Posts
    I found my professors were quite willing to talk about her until I showed them her thesis paper. Their tune changed quite a bit when they saw her thought process and how she has come to many of the conclusions she now spouts as fact. The only reason anyone listens to her at all is because she became e-famous due to feminist blogs and kickstarter.

    I urge you to actually watch her videos before seriously discussing this woman. It is incredible how lacking she actually is in the ability to understand and critique what is actually happening. She is like a child first discovering swear words: aware that they are bad but completely oblivious to their context, meaning, and usage. Everything she says sounds like it's copied word for word from TVTropes or the latest Jezebel post (or in one case, a speech by Hilary Clinton which she pretty much did copy word for word in a video).
    Thanks for the heads-up; I'll keep that in mind, especially because I don't know much about her or her perspectives in relation to other bloggers. What was her thesis about by the way?

    I agree too that the social justice environment is often hit-and-miss across the Internet. I consider myself a rad fem ally, but the amount of insensitive and baseless posts I've seen on Jezebel (especially about serous issues, like making light-hearted comments about female-male domestic abuse) is pretty mind-numbing. Many areas across the Internet are a haven for white, straight feminists too. I highly doubt Sarkeesian gives a crap about video games and race.
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  7. Post #207
    Gold Member
    FlakAttack's Avatar
    November 2006
    6,684 Posts
    This is the main issue. Compound that with the fact that many of these same video games treat women as consolation prizes (You beat Bowser, you win the Princess; You beat a motorcycle race, you get hot girls in bikinis; you defeat the Beauty & the Beast Corp, they pose for you; you finish MGS3, you get to see Eva half-naked in her cutscenes; etc. ), and it creates an environment where many women have more in common with rings and coins than protagonists and antagonists.
    As much as this is true, not everything is at it seems. Also, this trend is getting bucked hard if the last few years of games are anything to go by. Female assassins in Assassin's Creed, lead females (good ones too) in Mass Effect and other Bioware titles... also, men are thankfully being portrayed increasingly realistically as well. I think it's important to discuss what we're doing wrong, but it's equally important to discuss what we're doing right.
    See, I never got the implication that she's a bastion of objective knowledge from any of that, least of all her. The problem with saying somebody's implying something is that a lot of the implication can come from your own preconceptions. If you already dislike Sarkeesian I'm not surprised you take all kinds of negative implications from her work.
    She is being invited to presentations large and small, is talking to the media as an "expert", and is being referenced among academia. If that doesn't convince you that there is a perception that she is an expert on the topic, I don't know what will.
    Thanks for the heads-up; I'll keep that in mind, especially because I don't know much about her or her perspectives in relation to other bloggers. What was her thesis about by the way?

    I agree too that the social justice environment is often hit-and-miss across the Internet. I consider myself a rad fem ally, but the amount of insensitive and baseless posts I've seen on Jezebel (especially about series issues, like making light-hearted comments about female-male domestic abuse) is pretty mind-numbing. Many areas across the Internet are a haven for white, straight feminists too. I highly doubt Sarkeesian gives a crap about video games and race.
    This is what is so frustrating. You've got women trying to be heard on relevant topics like equal pay and violence who you can't hear because the nutters are screaming their insanity. It's amazing that on a site like Jezebel you will see an unbiased article about domestic violence right next to an article claiming all hetero-sexual sex is rape (not even joking).
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  8. Post #208
    Gold Member
    Usernameztaken's Avatar
    June 2009
    2,145 Posts
    Why do you have to play a game to know what it's about? I can go watch a Last of Us LP and know everything there is to know about the game, since all she's ever talking about is the plot and character drama, and not the gameplay or the way it plays, then she would definitely be better off just watching videos.

    It's like saying that listening to an audiobook means you don't know what the book is about because you didn't play it in its original format.
    But the point is that she completely MISSED the plot, and didn't WATCH the video. She just made assumptions about the plot and context and disregarded everything else.

    And then, she tried to make an argument out of it.
    Which, for those of you who don't know, is what we call ignorance..
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  9. Post #209
    Gold Member
    TheJoey's Avatar
    June 2010
    6,458 Posts
    who the shit cares, honestly.
    she didnt record the games she played which means theres no proof she used money towards recording tech like the device(s) or cords, and theres no proof she bought the games.

    where did the money go?
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  10. Post #210
    Tweevle's Avatar
    July 2011
    829 Posts
    She is being invited to presentations large and small, is talking to the media as an "expert", and is being referenced among academia. If that doesn't convince you that there is a perception that she is an expert on the topic, I don't know what will.
    I haven't actually heard people calling her an expert, certainly not her. Most of the presentations etc. she's been doing have been more to do with the backlash she received than the specifics of her work, that's what the videos are for. And even if she were something of an expert through thorough research, that wouldn't exactly make her a bastion of objective knowledge.

    Thanks for the heads-up; I'll keep that in mind, especially because I don't know much about her or her perspectives in relation to other bloggers. What was her thesis about by the way?

    I agree too that the social justice environment is often hit-and-miss across the Internet. I consider myself a rad fem ally, but the amount of insensitive and baseless posts I've seen on Jezebel (especially about serous issues, like making light-hearted comments about female-male domestic abuse) is pretty mind-numbing. Many areas across the Internet are a haven for white, straight feminists too. I highly doubt Sarkeesian gives a crap about video games and race.
    AFAIK (I haven't yet read it in great detail, but this is what I got from it) her thesis is a criticism of strong female characters only exhibiting traditionally masculine traits and not usually having traditionally feminine traits, so femininity is still being devalued and masculinity overvalued even though the characters are female. People often don't get it and say she's saying she agrees with gender roles and hates all strong female characters and thinks they're sexist, which just goes to show the mindset people have when criticising her work.

    I'm pretty sure she does care about video games and race - IIRC I've read comments she's made about how that's a problem. She's also discussed some race issues in her other videos (albeit to do with movies, not video games), and her parents are from Iraq.
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  11. Post #211
    Gold Member

    July 2010
    5,040 Posts
    As much as this is true, not everything is at it seems. Also, this trend is getting bucked hard if the last few years of games are anything to go by. Female assassins in Assassin's Creed, lead females (good ones too) in Mass Effect and other Bioware titles... also, men are thankfully being portrayed increasingly realistically as well. I think it's important to discuss what we're doing wrong, but it's equally important to discuss what we're doing right.
    It's true that we need to understand and appreciate that we're moving forward. But it's also important to remember that so many studios aren't quite there yet. I mean, BioWare hesitated for the longest time about non-hetero romantic options. Games like "Red Orchestra" aren't even acknowledging the role women played in the Eastern Front (TWI literally created no female models for snipers, even though there is a strong academic argument regarding a women sniper's superiority in Stalingrad based on Soviet marksmanship culture). Part of activism is celebrating the victories, but always remaining on your haunches.

    This is what is so frustrating. You've got women trying to be heard on relevant topics like equal pay and violence who you can't hear because the nutters are screaming their insanity. It's amazing that on a site like Jezebel you will see an unbiased article about domestic violence right next to an article claiming all hetero-sexual sex is rape (not even joking).
    To be fair there are also a lot of social issues that seem "nutty" but are actually hidden forms of oppression. Such as the freedom to wear clothes that aren't associated with your gender; the strength of women/men within modern narratives; misogynistic jokes; etc. Granted I think I know what you mean, but there's always a lot more that's worth discussing than society at large is willing to talk about.

    But yeah, Jezebel lost all credibility for me when I started seeing bullshit articles like that. The inability to understand their hypocritical commentary is striking for a feminist blog. For me, though, I think a mixture of transphobia, classism, and white-bias are the three most striking issues in feminism. If you were to clear out those three major issues, a lot of the problems with unreasonable and extreme voices would begin to dissipate. After all, some of the worst voices in feminism are the ones saying that trans* and lower-class people have no room in feminism. Which is utter bullshit, yet is present on an institutional level within academia.

    Edited:

    AFAIK (I haven't yet read it in great detail, but this is what I got from it) her thesis is a criticism of strong female characters only exhibiting traditionally masculine traits and not usually having traditionally feminine traits, so femininity is still being devalued and masculinity overvalued even though the characters are female. People often don't get it and say she's saying she agrees with gender roles and hates all strong female characters and thinks they're sexist, which just goes to show the mindset people have when criticising her work.

    I'm pretty sure she does care about video games and race - IIRC I've read comments she's made about how that's a problem. She's also discussed some race issues in her other videos (albeit to do with movies, not video games), and her parents are from Iraq.
    That's actually a pretty fair point. But it depends on the context of each individual woman. I mean, Adventure Time has a cast of very strong women who are also feminine - Princess Bubblegum, Lady Rainicorn, and Marceline, for instance.

    I think that's an accurate claim, though, when we look at the original burgeoning liberation of female characters. Certainly, strong women in action works have a lot more in common with men than women. Meryl in Metal Gear Solid is a lot more like a younger version of Snake, than she is a soldier version of Mei Ling. That said, some of the strongest women in the Western canon have also been feminine. Irene Adler, for instance, was both a feminine woman and a clever individual. Jordan Baker, Daisy Buchanan's friend in "The Great Gatsby," is a very strong woman who affects Nick's life just as much as he affects hers. It really depends on the context, but she definitely has a point.

    Also, wasn't aware about that about race. Still, I would be interested if her support runs the gambit for social justice, or she cuts off at issues like class & trans rights.
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  12. Post #212
    Gold Member
    HumanAbyss's Avatar
    March 2009
    30,287 Posts
    Thanks for the heads-up; I'll keep that in mind, especially because I don't know much about her or her perspectives in relation to other bloggers. What was her thesis about by the way?

    I agree too that the social justice environment is often hit-and-miss across the Internet. I consider myself a rad fem ally, but the amount of insensitive and baseless posts I've seen on Jezebel (especially about serous issues, like making light-hearted comments about female-male domestic abuse) is pretty mind-numbing. Many areas across the Internet are a haven for white, straight feminists too. I highly doubt Sarkeesian gives a crap about video games and race.
    You can find her thesis online and read it, and if that doesn't make you change your mind about her specifically nothing really will
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  13. Post #213
    Tweevle's Avatar
    July 2011
    829 Posts
    That's actually a pretty fair point. But it depends on the context of each individual woman. I mean, Adventure Time has a cast of very strong women who are also feminine - Princess Bubblegum, Lady Rainicorn, and Marceline, for instance.

    I think that's an accurate claim, though, when we look at the original burgeoning liberation of female characters. Certainly, strong women in action works have a lot more in common with men than women. Meryl in Metal Gear Solid is a lot more like a younger version of Snake, than she is a soldier version of Mei Ling. That said, some of the strongest women in the Western canon have also been feminine. Irene Adler, for instance, was both a feminine woman and a clever individual. Jordan Baker, Daisy Buchanan's friend in "The Great Gatsby," is a very strong woman who affects Nick's life just as much as he affects hers. It really depends on the context, but she definitely has a point.

    Also, wasn't aware about that about race. Still, I would be interested if her support runs the gambit for social justice, or she cuts off at issues like class & trans rights.
    Yeah, I think it's a pretty reasonable point to make. I don't really have an opinion on whether I agree with it or not or not since I haven't done much research into it, but it's definitely a lot less absurd than people make it out to be.

    She's definitely supportive of trans rights - she posts links to trans-related stuff on her Facebook and has made nods to it in her videos (e.g. making a point to say "all genders" as opposed to "both genders" or whatever). I don't remember her talking specifically about class rights but from her general stance on things I expect she's for that sort of thing too (IIRC she supported the Occupy Wall Street movement if that says anything).
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  14. Post #214
    katbug
    Guest
    She doesn't outright claim she is a bastion of objective knowledge, but she implies it - and more importantly - people are treating her like she is. Perception is everything.

    Audiobook to book is really not a good analogy to watching gameplay and actually playing it. Games are meant to be played, not watched (barring Metal Gear Solid 4).

    I found my professors were quite willing to talk about her until I showed them her thesis paper. Their tune changed quite a bit when they saw her thought process and how she has come to many of the conclusions she now spouts as fact. The only reason anyone listens to her at all is because she became e-famous due to feminist blogs and kickstarter.

    I urge you to actually watch her videos before seriously discussing this woman. It is incredible how lacking she actually is in the ability to understand and critique what is actually happening. She is like a child first discovering swear words: aware that they are bad but completely oblivious to their context, meaning, and usage. Everything she says sounds like it's copied word for word from TVTropes or the latest Jezebel post (or in one case, a speech by Hilary Clinton which she pretty much did copy word for word in a video).
    Wait, you guys didn't actually watch her stuff?

    What the hell, you're just defending her on principle then. I've watched 3 full episodes of her stuff before I came to my conclusions....

    Edited:

    -stuff-
    The whole reason I was almost completely anti-femenist a few days ago was because the people who are actually vocal/get heard and seen generally act completely ridiculous. A good example of this would be how a whole lot of you (not including you specifically, u p. cool) react when anyone posts anything regarding men's rights/equality under a different name, or just plain anything that has men being in power period.

    Combine that with videos like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1W-UT1sr4E , as well as a (vocal) majority that just sort of acts like fucking tools in general and you've given yourself an EXTREMELY bad image.

    The name "feminism" also is an immediate turn off. Feminist's goals are not to feminize culture, their goal is to level the playing field. I think that if the name of the movement changed to something like, I don't know, equalist or humanist (because the end goal isn't the empowering of women, it's the overall change of current society to enable people to behave as individuals, unbound by a repressive culture. The fact that this current social structure has been named "the patriarchy" (which it is NOT, I might add) also really dosen't help, because your social movement comes off as a direct attack on me, a male, simply for being a man (Which is not what it is, but that's how it comes off)

    All these factors combining together make it seem like the feminist social movement is not only a direct attack on men for being men, but it wishes to do away with everything "good" about being a guy while still having things like men paying for everything for women, making the big decisions, etc. I stand almost wholeheartedly behind the feminist movement, but you guys have honestly really not done a very good job at projecting your image positively. You just sort of come off as angry people who are easier to ignore than engage.
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  15. Post #215
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    I know that it isn't a RULE or anything on kickstarter, but most people re-invest all/most extra money to the project.

    If you get 150 grand you should at least invest enough time to the project to record your own gameplay.
    That's so like, arbitrary though, that doesn't even affect the quality of the video, and it certainly doesn't change the points that she's trying to make. It's like saying "If you get 150 grand you should at least invest in wearing nicer earrings", it just plain doesn't matter at all, so there's no reason to worry about it.
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  16. Post #216
    katbug
    Guest
    That's so like, arbitrary though, that doesn't even affect the quality of the video, and it certainly doesn't change the points that she's trying to make. It's like saying "If you get 150 grand you should at least invest in wearing nicer earrings", it just plain doesn't matter at all, so there's no reason to worry about it.
    No I'm saying that she has enough money to not work for a very long time, and should probably use that time to make her videos more well-researched, well-rounded, and not sound like someone who has OBVIOUSLY not played the game they're talking about. A lot of her arguments are extremely weak and there's a TON of confirmation bias in her videos, a more well rounded research method would make what she has to say relevant and good, but in my eyes she falls short. Way short.
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  17. Post #217
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    No I'm saying that she has enough money to not work for a very long time, and should probably use that time to make her videos more well-researched, well-rounded, and not sound like someone who has OBVIOUSLY not played the game they're talking about. A lot of her arguments are extremely weak and there's a TON of confirmation bias in her videos, a more well rounded research method would make what she has to say relevant and good, but in my eyes she falls short. Way short.
    Her videos are well-researched, there isn't even much research possibly involved in her videos beyond pretty much beating the game one way or the other. I don't know what you mean by well-rounded in this context. How does it sound like she has obviously not played the games she talks about? Her arguments aren't weak, her arguments are essentially objectively correct because essentially the only outlandish thing she's talking about is whether it's harmful or not, and I think she gives enough evidence to at least give her a chance.
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  18. Post #218
    katbug
    Guest
    Her videos are well-researched, there isn't even much research involved in her videos beyond pretty much beating the game one way or the other. I don't know what you mean by well-rounded in this context. How does it sound like she has obviously not played the games she talks about? Her arguments aren't weak, her arguments are essentially objectively correct because essentially the only outlandish thing she's talking about is whether it's harmful or not, and I think she gives enough evidence to at least give her a chance.
    Well, in the end, it's entertainment, and there's really no point in arguing over who likes what why.

    I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Her videos do point to things that are "real" in the game, but she nitpicks things that aren't even really problems, and makes sweeping generalizations, and assumptions (namely the darkness 2). Because she takes these things out of context and with such an ignorant approach, a good number of them just simply cannot be taken seriously in my eyes.
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  19. Post #219
    VENEZOLANO
    Big Bang's Avatar
    August 2006
    5,570 Posts
    why doesn't anybody complain about women in movies?

    i mean, aside from damsel in distress types, why would people complain about like, female fighters in fighting games? yeah their sex appeal is exaggerated, so what? they actually do fight quite well (the key example most people use is Ivy from Soul Calibur, who has huge tits, but she's also really complicated to use and one of the best characters in the series)

    and even then, the whole concept of a damsel in distress is older than fucking dirt, greek mythology often involved a hero type going out of his way to reach a damsel in distress, Helen of Troy's beauty literally started the Trojan War after Paris was cheesing over her. it's not exactly discriminatory, it's the basis of the most famous of love stories, the damsel in distress is actually symbolic to a much sweeter thing which is victory, the triumph of good over evil. Glory.

    then there's the usual argument of role models, but I can almost certainly guarantee you no girl born around this generation considered Lara Croft or Ivy or Princess Peach a role model, to the contrary, most will mention celebrities, Marilyn Monroe, Nicki Minaj, Kim Kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Beyoncé, Rihanna. back in the early 2000's i'm pretty sure some girls considered Amanda Bynes and Lindsay Lohan as role models, as people they would like to be. look at how those two turned out. videogames are an exact opposite of that, videogames don't grow up, with you. hell, Lara Croft looked the exact same for almost 20 years until the remake came about and changed her personality, backstory and looks a little. a living breathing role model will always be preferred to cartoons or media. i mean, how many guys with a superman tattoo actually look like superman?

    so what's the big fucking problem? it's entertainment, it's comics, I would go as far as to say that it's less exploitative than hollywood, video game characters don't get DUIs, videogames are part of the less virulent area of society while you have a huge fucking culture of destroying girls based on what they look, what they like or what they feel out in the cruel real world. videogames aren't escape fantasies, videogames are not about bringing up your children, videogames are not about what you can and what you can't do in real life. videogames, are not real life.

    so, feminists of the world, why don't you concern yourselves with the more pressing issue of women being misrepresented...in real life? how about concerning yourselves with the more pressing issue of women, in the video games industry, and how they are paid less, or otherwise discriminated against? how about concerning yourself about bullying, about how society expects girls to reduce themselves to imitations of others? there's a ton of things you could do for the women of the world, specifically the young women of the world, who base their lives out of what they read from twitter, from magazines, and on TV. the day you find me some girl going to school dressed as Bayonetta or the Sorceress from Dragon's Crown, is the day you should start concerning yourself about that kinda shit.
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  20. Post #220
    Gold Member
    Devodiere's Avatar
    November 2009
    10,301 Posts
    Her videos are well-researched, there isn't even much research possibly involved in her videos beyond pretty much beating the game one way or the other. I don't know what you mean by well-rounded in this context. How does it sound like she has obviously not played the games she talks about? Her arguments aren't weak, her arguments are essentially objectively correct because essentially the only outlandish thing she's talking about is whether it's harmful or not, and I think she gives enough evidence to at least give her a chance.
    it's not correct, it's her interpretation and even in the vagueness of that she does a crap job at it. all her interpretations drive a narrative and she goes into so little depth in each example she misses the entire point of many of them. she might as well show racism in fantasy by grouping together LotR, the Witcher and Dwarf Fortress because elves don't really get along with humans in any of them. rather than give an indepth analysis of anything, she just paints it all with tropes = sexism because it's easier to do a lot of games that way.

    i do find it funny though that anyone with enough experience could figure out the incredibly broad approach she's using and put it in context themselves, but with how she frames it aimed more at people who don't know much about video games or any of this stuff you wonder what the hell she's doing.
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  21. Post #221
    Dennab
    February 2007
    12,255 Posts
    It does seem a bit cheap for someone running a project with this kind of funding to not spend more time, money and effort into the actual research material.

    If you're going to analyze games, then you should at least do so by experiencing them hands-on rather than from outside footage and the usermade summaries made for the sake of entertainment on TvTropes.

    Edited:

    This is the main issue. Compound that with the fact that many of these same video games treat women as consolation prizes (You beat Bowser, you win the Princess; You beat a motorcycle race, you get hot girls in bikinis; you defeat the Beauty & the Beast Corp, they pose for you; you finish MGS3, you get to see Eva half-naked in her cutscenes; etc. ), and it creates an environment where many women have more in common with rings and coins than protagonists and antagonists.
    I absolutely loved Super Meat Boy for this. Game spoiler:    Basically the whole game is about how Meat Boy has to save his damsel in distress girlfriend Bandage Girl from Dr Fetus. She stands as the goal of every level crying for help, and when you finish the level Dr Fetus appears to beat her up and kidnap her.      However once you've beat the final boss for the first time, you unlock the last world. Dr Fetus then kidnaps Meat Boy instead, and you play through the most intense and hardest levels in the whole game as Bandage Girl trying to save Meat Boy from Dr Fetus.      After all this you unlock the secret ending, where Bandage Girl gleefully stomps Dr Fetus to death.   
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  22. Post #222
    Gold Member
    DarkMonkey's Avatar
    January 2009
    4,318 Posts
    The $6000 asked for wasn't raised to buy video games


    Physical copies bought literally right after a steam summer sale, which included many of the titles. Eugh.
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  23. Post #223
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    it's not correct, it's her interpretation and even in the vagueness of that she does a crap job at it. all her interpretations drive a narrative and she goes into so little depth in each example she misses the entire point of many of them. she might as well show racism in fantasy by grouping together LotR, the Witcher and Dwarf Fortress because elves don't really get along with humans in any of them. rather than give an indepth analysis of anything, she just paints it all with tropes = sexism because it's easier to do a lot of games that way.

    i do find it funny though that anyone with enough experience could figure out the incredibly broad approach she's using and put it in context themselves, but with how she frames it aimed more at people who don't know much about video games or any of this stuff you wonder what the hell she's doing.
    I don't think that her examples and videos fall into that category, contextually logical or not, that doesn't change what she's attempting to prove, and what she's trying to show is that women are used as damsels in distress very often in stories. How exactly does whether their positions and worth as characters makes sense in context change what they actually are?
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  24. Post #224
    Prime Minister of Australia
    MisterMooth's Avatar
    June 2008
    6,819 Posts


    Physical copies bought literally right after a steam summer sale, which included many of the titles. Eugh.
    i didn't realise you could buy console games on steam
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  25. Post #225
    Gold Member
    OutLawed Blade's Avatar
    July 2009
    1,035 Posts
    i didn't realise you could buy console games on steam
    He didnt say that though?
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  26. Post #226
    Gold Member
    DarkMonkey's Avatar
    January 2009
    4,318 Posts
    i didn't realise you could buy console games on steam
    Ones that aren't console exclusive you definitely can. Like, all of the ones I was referring to (though I didn't list them, fair)
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  27. Post #227
    Prime Minister of Australia
    MisterMooth's Avatar
    June 2008
    6,819 Posts
    Ones that aren't console exclusive you definitely can. Like, all of the ones I was referring to (though I didn't list them, fair)
    not everyone is a pc gamer
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  28. Post #228
    Zet
    Gold Member
    Zet's Avatar
    February 2011
    3,640 Posts
    Her videos are well-researched, there isn't even much research possibly involved in her videos beyond pretty much beating the game one way or the other. I don't know what you mean by well-rounded in this context. How does it sound like she has obviously not played the games she talks about? Her arguments aren't weak, her arguments are essentially objectively correct because essentially the only outlandish thing she's talking about is whether it's harmful or not, and I think she gives enough evidence to at least give her a chance.
    If her videos are well-researched why does she insist that Bayonetta is a mother    when she isn't? The kid she's looking after is herself from the past.   
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  29. Post #229
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    If her videos are well-researched why does she insist that Bayonetta is a mother    when she isn't? The kid she's looking after is herself from the past.   
    I don't recall her saying that, what part and when did she say that?

    Edited:

    Though to be fair being a mother is more of a character trait, but...I dunno.
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  30. Post #230
    Zet
    Gold Member
    Zet's Avatar
    February 2011
    3,640 Posts
    I don't recall her saying that, what part and when did she say that?

    Edited:

    Though to be fair being a mother is more of a character trait, but...I dunno.
    Start at 0:53

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  31. Post #231
    Hello Handsome
    ForgottenKane's Avatar
    February 2010
    14,789 Posts
    it's amazing how you can conclude she hasn't played the games just because she referred to other footage in her videos
    If you actually watched them then you'd understand she has no fucking clue what she's talking about, just like you don't right now.
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  32. Post #232
    Penis Architect
    Paul-Simon's Avatar
    November 2008
    14,967 Posts
    I didn't know there existed people on Facepunch that actually supported this woman
    Guess it's like a religion to some.
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  33. Post #233
    Dennab
    May 2011
    1,056 Posts
    I don't recall her saying that, what part and when did she say that?

    Edited:

    Though to be fair being a mother is more of a character trait, but...I dunno.
    let me just bring you back to reality

    this lady is a master rusewoman - she jibbed people of of a lot of money to comment on video games she hasn't played nor understands and, as said previously, cherry picks information to suit her cause

    anyone defending her is either being paid to or has a genuine mental deficiency
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  34. Post #234
    Hello Handsome
    ForgottenKane's Avatar
    February 2010
    14,789 Posts
    I didn't know there existed people on Facepunch that actually supported this woman
    Guess it's like a religion to some.
    They're often referred to as the Sanius Squad, for reasons I'd rather not pursue, and they're feminists.

    Sometimes they hit the nail on the head, sometimes they don't. I don't even know why I'm commenting about them, the moment their name is brought up it usually causes a shitstorm.
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  35. Post #235
    Gold Member
    Devodiere's Avatar
    November 2009
    10,301 Posts
    I don't think that her examples and videos fall into that category, contextually logical or not, that doesn't change what she's attempting to prove, and what she's trying to show is that women are used as damsels in distress very often in stories. How exactly does whether their positions and worth as characters makes sense in context change what they actually are?
    do you see the issue with deliberately disregarding all the worth and characteristics of them so you can classify them according to this trope and then complaining that they're just a damsel in distress? that's not the only defining feature of them any more than my only defining feature is being a white guy. it's such a shallow reading you can't get any real meaning from it, unless you think "a lot of things involve violence" or "most protagonists are made to be easy to identify with" are incredibly insightful statements.

    a trope isn't something poisonous, it's a tool for the story and it entirely depends on how it's used. the walking dead followed a fuckton of zombie tropes but because it knew what it was doing and made a good story regardless, no-one complains. in the same way SotC had a damsel in distress according to anita but it was such a minor and well done part of the story you'd have to be mad to think it sexist. of course that's what anita does, she doesn't highlight things that have been done well or take into account circumstances, she judges on the arbitrary criteria that tvtropes provides for her.
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  36. Post #236
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    I didn't know there existed people on Facepunch that actually supported this woman
    Guess it's like a religion to some.
    Hey man, I like her videos, I think they're well made and at the very least, entertaining to see someone else's opinion and their support of it. I don't see why people feel the need to be so aggressive against her when really she's upholding her end of the bargain, the rest of the hate just seems to be people thinking they're objectively correct, ignoring that there are different ways to interpret everything, as if those other interpretations are somehow less than their own.
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  37. Post #237
    Dennab
    February 2007
    12,255 Posts
    I really do think the Damsel in distress trope has become more uncommon though. It was very prominent in old games, but I think that not only has people come to realize that it's potentially demeaning, but also that it's something that's been done to death and games these days usually have more advanced plots than to just save the girl.
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  38. Post #238
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    do you see the issue with deliberately disregarding all the worth and characteristics of them so you can classify them according to this trope and then complaining that they're just a damsel in distress? that's not the only defining feature of them any more than my only defining feature is being a white guy. it's such a shallow reading you can't get any real meaning from it, unless you think "a lot of things involve violence" or "most protagonists are made to be easy to identify with" are incredibly insightful statements.

    a trope isn't something poisonous, it's a tool for the story and it entirely depends on how it's used. the walking dead followed a fuckton of zombie tropes but because it knew what it was doing and made a good story regardless, no-one complains. in the same way SotC had a damsel in distress according to anita but it was such a minor and well done part of the story you'd have to be mad to think it sexist. of course that's what anita does, she doesn't highlight things that have been done well or take into account circumstances, she judges on the arbitrary criteria that tvtropes provides for her.
    I don't think she's attempting to say that they're only damsels, though, and her argument doesn't hinge on that either. Whether a character is more than one thing is irrelevant, she's looking through those characters, showing that through the facade of "complex characters" they're also just a basic damsel in distress trope.

    A trope isn't something poisonous by nature, you're absolutely right, but sometimes they CAN have bad effects on society, and that's really her entire point. I do agree that sometimes she may go too far, but that doesn't detract from her overall message.
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  39. Post #239
    Gold Member
    Devodiere's Avatar
    November 2009
    10,301 Posts
    Hey man, I like her videos, I think they're well made and at the very least, entertaining to see someone else's opinion and their support of it. I don't see why people feel the need to be so aggressive against her when really she's upholding her end of the bargain, the rest of the hate just seems to be people thinking they're objectively correct, ignoring that there are different ways to interpret everything, as if those other interpretations are somehow less than their own.
    like most things in art and everything else there are a lot of ways to interpret something, and while there is a degree of subjectivity you can't really winnie the pooh as communist propaganda and expect people to take it seriously, some ways just don't make sense.
    I don't think she's attempting to say that they're only damsels, though, and her argument doesn't hinge on that either. Whether a character is more than one thing is irrelevant, she's looking through those characters, showing that through the facade of "complex characters" they're also just a basic damsel in distress trope.

    A trope isn't something poisonous by nature, you're absolutely right, but sometimes they CAN have bad effects on society, and that's really her entire point. I do agree that sometimes she may go too far, but that doesn't detract from her overall message.
    except that's completely wrong. the trope isn't the most important thing about the character and just because you can slot it into that box doesn't mean it's all the same thing. the idea that it doesn't matter about the circumstances of a character when the circumstances are what can ascertain if it actually follows the objectification than everyone claims is so bad to society.

    you do realise the connection between this and all of her tropes and objectification isn't absolute, right? the circumstances of it can completely change it and it's not a matter of just connecting one to the other.
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  40. Post #240
    Gold Member
    Lambadvanced's Avatar
    July 2007
    3,432 Posts
    like most things in art and everything else there are a lot of ways to interpret something, and while there is a degree of subjectivity you can't really winnie the pooh as communist propaganda and expect people to take it seriously, some ways just don't make sense.


    except that's completely wrong. the trope isn't the most important thing about the character and just because you can slot it into that box doesn't mean it's all the same thing. the idea that it doesn't matter about the circumstances of a character when the circumstances are what can ascertain if it actually follows the objectification than everyone claims is so bad to society.

    you do realise the connection between this and all of her tropes and objectification isn't absolute, right? the circumstances of it can completely change it and it's not a matter of just connecting one to the other.
    Right, the context of why they are a damsel in distress can change, it can make sense in the story, but I don't see how that changes that they are, in fact, damsels in distress. Her entire point right now in her damsel videos is to show that damsel in distress tropes are used one way or the other, that's really all she's doing. It can make all the sense in context she wants, but she isn't criticizing the game so much as society's interpretation of the trope itself.
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