1. Post #41
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    But what is "good" in her book if no matter what you design, it's wrong?
    i dont know, you have critical thinking skills you decide what you think is good or not good

    Edited:

    She IS hard to please, but this is normal and symptomatic of Wave 3 feminism. The problem with wave 3 feminists is their idea that they need to breakdown and over-come the essentialist ideals that wave 2 feminists put in place..
    good job you read the wikipedia page
    how is that a problem?

    Edited:

    So a feminine female character is wrong, a next to genderless female character is wrong, and a masculine female character is wrong? What's right, then? Would people be happy if we just omitted female characters from games altogether?
    the point of anita's line of work isnt to be happy, its to remain constantly critical because the idea is that constant criticism leads to constant self-revision and improvement

    critical theory isnt a new thing its existed ever since books existed
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  2. Post #42
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    You don't have any improvement if you don't have a goal of what to improve towards, that's just outright retarded.
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  3. Post #43
    Gold Member
    Eric95's Avatar
    January 2009
    5,660 Posts
    the point of anita's line of work isnt to be happy, its to remain constantly critical because the idea is that constant criticism leads to constant self-revision and improvement

    critical theory isnt a new thing its existed ever since books existed
    Good, constructive criticism works toward a solution instead of just stating problems.
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  4. Post #44
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    You don't have any improvement if you don't have a goal of what to improve towards, that's just outright retarded.
    ok but its not anitas place to have a goal to improve towards, shes a social critic
    if thats "outright retarded" to you then whatever obviously you think all critical theory must be retarded because its pretty consistent

    the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism

    Edited:

    Good, constructive criticism works toward a solution instead of just stating problems.
    i dont think she ever claimed she was engaging in constructive criticism.
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  5. Post #45
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    ok but its not anitas place to have a goal to improve towards, shes a social critic
    if thats "outright retarded" to you then whatever obviously you think all critical theory must be retarded because its pretty consistent

    the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism
    I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks.

    Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.
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  6. Post #46
    Gold Member
    omggrass's Avatar
    August 2005
    387 Posts
    I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks.

    Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.
    i've noticed him doing that as well...
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  7. Post #47
    Gold Member
    Eric95's Avatar
    January 2009
    5,660 Posts
    the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism
    Wait, what? All criticism is based on subjective opinions.
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  8. Post #48
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks.
    like i care pfFFF

    Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.
    fine then shes being a huge crybaby
    like marx was a huge crybaby when he was criticizing capitalism in das kapital

    Edited:

    Wait, what? All criticism is based on subjective opinions.
    the point of critical analysis and critical theory is to not be based on subjective opinions but rather be based on evidence and facts which constitute a "soft" science

    anita does a shitty job at that, but thats what shes going for
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  9. Post #49
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    like i care pfFFF



    fine then shes being a huge crybaby
    like marx was a huge crybaby when he was criticizing capitalism in das kapital
    Alright now I know you're just trying to start a shitstorm or something. Marx criticized capitalism because he believed socialism to be a better solution for society, that was his goal. It's obvious.
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  10. Post #50
    Gold Member
    Flyingman356's Avatar
    June 2008
    6,951 Posts
    It's a hard subject, and I understand that. But I think people are blaming the wrong thing.
    The reason girls are being insulted, harassed and stalked whenever the reveal their identity in gaming is not because we've been playing games where women tend to be portrayed as weak. This assumption is based on the "fact" that people cannot differ fiction from reality, just as with how people claim violent games leads to school shootings and other IRL violence, it simply does not.
    What leads to men obsessing over women in online gaming is the fact that these people are a bunch of idiots. They think the proper way to treat a women is the same way we though in early school, get her attention by picking on her, stealing her things etc. People that act this way simply don't know how to act with women. So when people blame games that shows damsels in distress, skimpy outfits and whatever I just sigh. Do people really think gamers are this stupid? HUMANITY IS THIS STUPID. Stupid people are going to do stupid things until stupidity is erased by some super drug in the future, until then we're going to see a lot of problems that don't have any cause other than idiots doing wrong things and trying to teach them how to do it correctly wont work.

    I'd like to see one case of a person actually believing in video game fiction(without being mentally insane). Is that even possible?
    Much like guns in games reinforces violent tendencies, sexism in games reinforces sexist tendencies.

  11. Post #51
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    Alright now I know you're just trying to start a shitstorm or something. Marx criticized capitalism because he believed socialism to be a better solution for society, that was his goal. It's obvious.
    no thats very much not true, his ideas about communism (not socialism) came out of his critical theory work. theres a strong separation between his political work and his critical theory work
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  12. Post #52
    Gold Member
    Eric95's Avatar
    January 2009
    5,660 Posts
    the point of critical analysis and critical theory is to not be based on subjective opinions but rather be based on evidence and facts which constitute a "soft" science

    anita does a shitty job at that, but thats what shes going for
    Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's for a good cause, but she's doing a shitty job at it and that's a problem because she has somehow become the main representative of her side. Which just leads to people already on her side being the only ones who take her videos seriously, and that makes her videos useless for purposes beyond raising general awareness.

  13. Post #53
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    Much like guns in games reinforces violent tendencies, sexism in games reinforces sexist tendencies.
    But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that.

    For example anyone who steals a car and murders someone and then claims they got it from GTA. The problem isn't that he got his idea from GTA, it's that he was crazy enough to do it.

    Even if I think it would be hot if all the hot chicks ran around in super skimpy dresses all day I don't think that's normal, it's silly. I don't expect anyone to do it and I won't let it affect my thinking, it's a silly fantasy.
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  14. Post #54
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's for a good cause, but she's doing a shitty job at it and that's a problem because she has somehow become the main representative of her side.
    its obvious why shes the main representative. she provides a very simplistic youtube video that can easily be shared and turned into youtube controversy by people sharing her shit on forums or imageboards

    if she wrote a book like every proper social critic no-one would care and no-one would talk about it

    Edited:

    lets face it if anyone on the internet actually gave a shit about what anita had to say theyd order books about feminist media theory and try to find out about the issue

    youre not gonna understand shit about feminism or the problems women face by watching bad youtube videos
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  15. Post #55
    Gold Member
    Flyingman356's Avatar
    June 2008
    6,951 Posts
    But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that.
    Sexism is basically brought on by us being told things by society, and the only thing being an idiot makes you is impressionable to things without any particular credibility, such as things that aren't meant to be taken seriously.
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  16. Post #56
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconcious

    youre not crazy or an idiot if you are sexist or do sexist things. i do sexist things, but i do them subconsciously and thats why bringing it to light is important
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  17. Post #57
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    Sexism is basically brought on by us being told things by society, and the only thing being an idiot makes you is impressionable to things without any particular credibility, such as things that aren't meant to be taken seriously.
    If people really took their values from games, shouldn't all men be trying their hardest to be super strong and heroic? The facts are right here, we don't learn reality from games because we know they're fiction. Also I don't really see if that post is arguing against me, or with me.

    Edited:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconcious

    youre not crazy or an idiot if you are sexist or do sexist things. i do sexist things, but i do them subconsciously and thats why bringing it to light is important
    If you can't control yourself I would consider you crazy. And I'm not arguing over sexism not existing, I'm saying that gaming doesn't affect it.
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  18. Post #58
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    If you can't control yourself I would consider you crazy.
    ive never heard a convincing argument for free will lmao
    maybe you wanna give it a shot

    And I'm not arguing over sexism not existing, I'm saying that gaming doesn't affect it.
    its the other way around. media is a watermark of how a culture looks at itself, and when we see something in this "spectacle" we accept it and interact with our expectations which means that media then reflects that.



    everything in culture is a loop. if a game is sexist its representative of a sexist attitude in culture, and the fact that we then accept that game as a piece of media creates a system where that media is perpetuated making more of it

    commercialism in action
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  19. Post #59
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    That still relies on the assumption that people actually think the way you act in games, and the way people are portrayed is somewhat real.
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  20. Post #60
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    That still relies on the assumption that people actually think the way you act in games, and the way people are portrayed is somewhat real.
    umm where do you see that assumption??
    the assumption is that people participate in mass media culture

    i dont see how what you are talking about relates to mass media culture. we see something that mass media culture creates and we either accept it and buy into it; creating more demand; or we dont buy into it and there is no demand

    if a game is sexist the sexism is perpetuated purely by the virtue of us buying it, because that tells mass media that sexism sells games and companies just by their function do whatever sells the most

    Edited:

    if you knew anything about marx youd know why that is
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  21. Post #61
    Gold Member
    Matrix374's Avatar
    May 2010
    7,201 Posts
    I'm probably one of the most biased users when it comes to the subject of Anita but I don't really see how she could do anything better than this (Turn on annotations)

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  22. Post #62
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    umm where do you see that assumption??
    the assumption is that people participate in mass media culture

    i dont see how what you are talking about relates to mass media culture. we see something that mass media culture creates and we either accept it and buy into it; creating more demand; or we dont buy into it and there is no demand

    if a game is sexist the sexism is perpetuated purely by the virtue of us buying it, because that tells mass media that sexism sells games and companies just by their function do whatever sells the most

    Edited:

    if you knew anything about marx youd know why that is
    Because fiction is fiction and I believe that sensible people can differ fiction from reality, just because we buy games that contain fiction doesn't mean we believe that to be real. I don't think fiction creates real problems.

  23. Post #63
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    Because fiction is fiction and I believe that sensible people can differ fiction from reality, just because we buy games that contain fiction doesn't mean we believe that to be real. I don't think fiction creates real problems.
    if sensible people could differentiate fiction from reality history wouldnt exist and cultural narratives wouldnt exist

    you can say religion is fiction all you want, doesnt change the fact that the bible is incredibly important to western society and shapes how we think and understand our world as westerns

    the same applies for games.

  24. Post #64
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    I'm probably one of the most biased users when it comes to the subject of Anita but I don't really see how she could do anything better than this (Turn on annotations)


    What she talks about in the entire video pretty much proves my point, she believes that people believe that games are real. The annotations also continue to prove that she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and she takes every opportunity to throw in the words patriarchy and misogynism to create a problem that doesn't really exist, so that she can continue to discuss it.

    Edited:

    if sensible people could differentiate fiction from reality history wouldnt exist and cultural narratives wouldnt exist

    you can say religion is fiction all you want, doesnt change the fact that the bible is incredibly important to western society and shapes how we think and understand our world as westerns

    the same applies for games.
    Oh now I just know you're throwing straws
    The bible was taught to ignorant masses as being real, everyone was indoctrinated to believe that the bible is reality. I have never ever seen any sticker, annotation or anything saying "THIS GAME IS REAL AND YOU MUST BELIEVE IN WHAT HAPPENS HERE!"
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  25. Post #65
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    in our consumerist culture real and fiction are irrelevant, what matters is the public image
    language isnt "real" by any means, but you acquire it via social pressure and we know through scientific study that just speaking one language heavily changes the way you think, with english people having very different thoughts from other speakers just because their sentence structure is composed in a certain way
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  26. Post #66
    Cake like Lady Gaga
    Shadaez's Avatar
    December 2005
    16,444 Posts
    What she talks about in the entire video pretty much proves my point, she believes that people believe that games are real. The annotations also continue to prove that she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and she takes every opportunity to throw in the words patriarchy and misogynism to create a problem that doesn't really exist, so that she can continue to discuss it.
    Keep in mind she removed the video after realizing her mistakes.
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  27. Post #67
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    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    in our consumerist culture real and fiction are irrelevant, what matters is the public image
    language isnt "real" by any means, but you acquire it via social pressure and we know through scientific study that just speaking one language heavily changes the way you think, with english people having very different thoughts from other speakers just because their sentence structure is composed in a certain way
    I'm not sure what you're attempting anymore. "Language isn't real"? Sure, language is fluid and evolving, but it's very much real.

    I'm outta this thread.
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  28. Post #68
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    Oh now I just know you're throwing straws
    dont use words or terms you dont understand lol

    The bible was taught to ignorant masses as being real, everyone was indoctrinated to believe that the bible is reality. I have never ever seen any sticker, annotation or anything saying "THIS GAME IS REAL AND YOU MUST BELIEVE IN WHAT HAPPENS HERE!"
    first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible

    second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism.

    Edited:

    "Language isn't real"? Sure, language is fluid and evolving, but it's very much real.
    languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game

    Edited:

    that reminds me of that study i read that said people who dont believe that advertisement affects them are actually far more strongly affected by it; i wonder if the same is true for jiggu lol
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  29. Post #69
    Gold Member
    omggrass's Avatar
    August 2005
    387 Posts
    dont use words or terms you dont understand lol



    first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible

    second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism.

    Edited:



    languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game
    are you really breaking this down into semantics?

  30. Post #70
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    are you really breaking this down into semantics?
    point out where i broke this "down into semantics" plz
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  31. Post #71
    Gold Member
    omggrass's Avatar
    August 2005
    387 Posts
    dont use words or terms you dont understand lol



    first of all thats historically not true, youll find even today that non-ignorant people will gladly believe in the bible

    second of all thats not really my point, my point is we live in a secular culture yet a religious text guides our thinking in a lot of ways. just because its fiction doesnt mean our attitudes arent changed by it, any religion that has manifested in the roots of a culture can have the same said of it, islam, buddhism, shinto, mormonism, rastafarism.

    Edited:



    languages is a series of words and concepts, if language is real then so is a game

    Edited:

    that reminds me of that study i read that said people who dont believe that advertisement affects them are actually far more strongly affected by it; i wonder if the same is true for jiggu lol
    could you source me that study, i'm interested.

    Edited:

    point out where i broke this "down into semantics" plz
    when you felt the need to explain what language IS...

    Edited:

    could you source me that study, i'm interested.

    Edited:



    when you felt the need to explain what language IS...
    also video games doesn't have as much of an effect on us as you think, because god help us if it did.

  32. Post #72
    Gold Member
    Falchion's Avatar
    May 2009
    8,116 Posts
    The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames.

    It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.
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  33. Post #73
    Gold Member
    omggrass's Avatar
    August 2005
    387 Posts
    The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames.

    It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.
    nail, head, hammer.
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  34. Post #74
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    could you source me that study, i'm interested.
    i cant find it; it was probably some bullshit cracked article haha

    when you felt the need to explain what language IS...
    thats not semantics, thats more trying to create an analogy
    language isnt any more tangible and nonfictional than the ideas and concepts expressed through a videogame, its just you accept the language because you live in that culture

    the same applies to any media, including games

    also video games doesn't have as much of an effect on us as you think, because god help us if it did.
    not very convincing lol
    why wouldnt videogames influence us like film or music have? think of how much language is affected by what movies we watch. think about how who we want in a partner is affected by film and how they should dress or act (look up manic pixie). think about how we look at ourselves is influenced by identity which involves what media we consume (when someone calls themselves a gamer, they acknowledge how much influence it has on them as a person)

    the problem with culture is you dont get a say, if others are affected by it you must be affected by it whether negatively or positively

    Edited:

    The problem isn't really how women are portrayed in videogames.

    It's more the existence of the legion of cranky nerds who literally think all women are stupid whores.
    they didnt come out of their mums thinking that way
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  35. Post #75
    Gold Member
    Falchion's Avatar
    May 2009
    8,116 Posts
    they didnt come out of their mums thinking that way
    No they unfortunately went through 4chan /pol/ after that.
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  36. Post #76
    playdoh
    Dennab
    May 2008
    2,770 Posts
    Since when did someone's opinion become news?


    ???

    Anyways, yeah, I know that's a different situation than what this is, but still, not all news has to be important/relating to political/economic news.
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  37. Post #77
    Dr-Amazing's Avatar
    July 2012
    159 Posts
    I almost read this as Cliff Bleszinkski Resigns.

  38. Post #78
    Gold Member
    ChaosUnleash's Avatar
    July 2007
    2,514 Posts
    I never really saw the idea behind this. I mean, if I wanted to play a game where characters are realistic and lifelike (in the sense that they don't have super powers and are supposed to be somewhat like normal people) I'd go and play the sims and let the game randomly generate my characters. I play games to get away from the real world, having characters that are obviously made to look better than real people do, act in way that real people probably wouldn't do and generally be a bit over the top is the whole point. Most games I feel are just a bit 'over the top' in that sense and any sort of sexism isn't intended to be sexist, it's intended to make the target audience (which in a lot of cases is male young adults) feel bloody awesome.

    Honestly, I didn't even think Bayonetta was supposed to be offensive because although the character does act a bit 'sexy', she's also going around knocking seven shades of shit out of all the enemies. It's like how in most hack-n-slash games the characters tend to pull off funky poses and be as 'stylish' as possible, it makes the player feel damn cool about what they're doing. Maybe it's just me, or as someone said above the fact that a lot of nerds think that all women are stupid whores, but I don't think there's much of a problem.

    Maybe I'm missing the point or something, but I don't see the issue and neither do any of my female gamer friends, they just see it is a bit of hyper-realism. You get to play as and interact with people who you wouldn't meet in real life and are very exaggerated.
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  39. Post #79
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    39,999 Posts
    I mean, if I wanted to play a game where characters are realistic and lifelike I'd go and play the sims
    heh??
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  40. Post #80
    Appellation's Avatar
    October 2012
    2,113 Posts
    Loud idiots on both sides blur out the reasonable discussion.

    There was reasonable disapproval that by some was escalated to hate, which sparked counter-hate but targeted disapprovers in general and from that point it just keeps going.
    It's like politics, in q lot of ways both sides of the political spectrum have legitimate plans for running a country.
    But, the majority of people don't stick to the valuable philosophy (to be valuable philosophy, ideas about how the country should be run are well thought out, and interdependent l.
    But, the vast majority of people only know the ideology (distilled philosophy meant to mobilize the masses, but lacking in scientific and philosophical depth)
    The one's who don't think stuff through have more of a voice, and the country suffers.