1. Post #1201
    Andrew McWatters
    Dennab
    March 2011
    4,658 Posts
    Could anyone give me a real-world example of what exactly is ass-backwards with python, or doesn't look nice?

    It's a language I've been considering dedicating more time to, but if anyone has solid reasons why it's not something I should invest time into, I may consider another language.
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  2. Post #1202
    Eudoxia's Avatar
    July 2009
    5,899 Posts
    The problem with Python, I think, is they tried to make the syntax too simple. Sure, writing Hello World is easy, but any non-trivial program will be hard to read because of the irregular syntax :saddowns:
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  3. Post #1203
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  4. Post #1204
    Gold Member
    esalaka's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,888 Posts
    I don't see the posterior-backwardness there unless you mean the whitespace sensitivity?
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  5. Post #1205
    garry's Avatar
    September 2001
    12,193 Posts
    That's exactly what I mean
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  6. Post #1206
    calzoneman's Avatar
    February 2008
    460 Posts
    i never said he shouldn't use python i was just saying i don't like the way it looks
    The problem with Python, I think, is they tried to make the syntax too simple. Sure, writing Hello World is easy, but any non-trivial program will be hard to read because of the irregular syntax :saddowns:
    If you don't like it, then don't use it. The whole point of my post was that it's stupid for us to sit around and say "I don't like language <x> because <y>" instead of actually posting something that contributes to discussion.
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  7. Post #1207
    Gold Member
    esalaka's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,888 Posts
    Well that's just how Python works.

    Exactly the same as if you hated Lisp for using brackets.
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  8. Post #1208
    garry's Avatar
    September 2001
    12,193 Posts
    Weird - someone mentioned something in a forum and then someone else replied to their post telling them what they thought about it? When did this shit start happening?

    Edited:

    Well that's just how Python works.

    Exactly the same as if you hated Lisp for using brackets.
    Well that's what I find `ass backwards` about it. That's why I don't like it. Giving opinion.
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  9. Post #1209
    Andrew McWatters
    Dennab
    March 2011
    4,658 Posts
    That doesn't really bother me. What does bother me was reading this, however:

    Wikipedia posted:
    Python aims towards simplicity and generality in the design of its syntax, encapsulated in the mantra "There should be one — and preferably only one — obvious way to do it", from "The Zen of Python".[2]

    This mantra is deliberately opposed to the Perl and Ruby mantra, "there's more than one way to do it"
    Things like syntax, for the most part, across almost all mainstream languages, don't phase me.
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  10. Post #1210
    Gold Member
    ryandaniels's Avatar
    December 2006
    3,888 Posts
    Off-topic, but I just wanted to note that I highly regret it whenever I travel outside this sub-forum. (although I guess we aren't a sub-forum anymore)

    And sometimes when I visit this sub-forum as well.


    Just kidding, I love you guys :)
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  11. Post #1211
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    If you don't like it, then don't use it. The whole point of my post was that it's stupid for us to sit around and say "I don't like language <x> because <y>" instead of actually posting something that contributes to discussion.
    saying "i dont like <x> because <y>" is a discussion..
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  12. Post #1212
    Gold Member
    iPope's Avatar
    October 2008
    1,769 Posts
    I hate python. But I hate everything else more.
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  13. Post #1213
    www.bff-hab.de
    Dennab
    February 2009
    7,832 Posts
    I think you should just try Python instead of debating over it.
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  14. Post #1214
    Icedshot's Avatar
    April 2010
    2,224 Posts
    so, when enabling the opencl optimisations

    "-cl-strict-aliasing -cl-mad-enable -cl-unsafe-math-optimizations"

    9000 particles at 40 ms/frame

    This more than doubles the performance

    And this is still completely naive checking. I'm going to partition the screen soon, and that should massively, massively increase performance
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  15. Post #1215
    Richy19's Avatar
    May 2010
    5,269 Posts
    so, when enabling the opencl optimisations

    "-cl-strict-aliasing -cl-mad-enable -cl-unsafe-math-optimizations"

    9000 particles at 40 ms/frame

    This more than doubles the performance

    And this is still completely naive checking. I'm going to partition the screen soon, and that should massively, massively increase performance
    Where are you learning all of this openCL stuff?
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  16. Post #1216
    Gold Member
    Darwin226's Avatar
    January 2009
    3,870 Posts
    so, when enabling the opencl optimisations

    "-cl-strict-aliasing -cl-mad-enable -cl-unsafe-math-optimizations"

    9000 particles at 40 ms/frame

    This more than doubles the performance

    And this is still completely naive checking. I'm going to partition the screen soon, and that should massively, massively increase performance
    I'm actually kind of getting excited :D
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  17. Post #1217
    ASK ME ABOUT MY PLAYBOOK INSTEAD OF COLLEGE
    icantread49's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,616 Posts
    So Marmalade 6.0.0 just came out, and of course I tried it due to all the fixes and new features, but they broke some core functionality in very odd ways, so now I have to go back to 5.2.2 and wait for 6.0.1. Good job Marmalade devs. If only they open-sourced a couple of their minor modules, I'd be able to stick with 6.0.0 and contribute the fixes.
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  18. Post #1218
    Icedshot's Avatar
    April 2010
    2,224 Posts
    Where are you learning all of this openCL stuff?
    After you learn the nuts and bolts of the opencl api (its not actually *that* complex), its mostly just a many, many threaded C process with a few caveats and considerations to remember.

    The khronos website as well. It provides excellent documentation to opencl functions and parameters

    Initially to begin i found a simple tutorial that took me through the stages of loading and executing an opencl program. After that, there was a fair bit of practice (its quite easy to make mistakes), as well as experimenting with settings and such. But after you get down the core concepts, its mostly the same from program to program, and after a short while it becomes much easier to work with

    Most of what i find out now is screwing around, looking at the opencl quick reference guide, as well as reading the occasional article on how to improve gpgpu programs (less branching!)

    http://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-...rence-card.pdf (ati beta drivers only)
    http://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-...rence-card.pdf (nvidia doesn't support extended 64 bit atomics >.>)
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  19. Post #1219
    Gold Member
    ryandaniels's Avatar
    December 2006
    3,888 Posts
    I'd also say that the vendors (ATI/AMD, Nvidia, etc) seem to provide some very good information in their respective OpenCL sections of their websites. Especially important for fine tuning your software for different implementations of OpenCL, once you get to that point in development.
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  20. Post #1220
    Gold Member
    Lexic's Avatar
    March 2009
    6,043 Posts
    Where did you get that from anyways?
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  21. Post #1221
    BOSSMAN
    leontodd's Avatar
    January 2009
    4,385 Posts
    I got that on the 20th too but on the 30th I received one talking about the compliance updates and it said:
    We will email you individually to confirm your personal delivery date as soon as we are able to. We will continue to share generic information, but recognise that it is the detailed specific information to your order that is most important to you.
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  22. Post #1222

    February 2007
    112 Posts
    After you learn the nuts and bolts of the opencl api (its not actually *that* complex), its mostly just a many, many threaded C process with a few caveats and considerations to remember.
    I ran into an awesome one today: OpenCL does no checks whatsoever on the size of the buffer that you're working with from within the kernels themselves like even regular C will do. I allocated buffers 1,2,3,4 and 5 all in sequence, and ran a few kernels against clusters of them. I ran a kernel that indexed into buffer 4 outside of it's range and instead of blowing up OpenCL just followed the memory indexing and started writing random shit to buffer 2.

    Fun stuff, but it's great when you figure out the problems and things just sort of click.
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  23. Post #1223
    Tautika's Avatar
    January 2010
    143 Posts
    Ok so I have a question for you guys. Next year I'm going to university and following Computer Science. I'm really excited, even more since I started lurking this thread (it's awesome) so I wanted to start doing programming stuff already. They will be teaching Java next year (at least the first semesters, later on also Pascal and C and some other stuff) So I thought I'd find some nice tutorials and just go with it and get started. (are these any good http://eclipsetutorial.sourceforge.n...beginner.html? Also found 'thenewboston' on youtube, how are those tutorials?)

    Anyway, suddenly I found out about Udacity, so I thought, Awesome! and enrolled right away. But they teach you Python which you guys don't seem to like.
    So my question is, what would be a smart choice? Go with Udacity, follow the Java tutorials or do something completely different?

    I don't really have any previous programming experience, except for some HTML/CSS and Javascript knowledge.
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  24. Post #1224
    Gold Member
    Lexic's Avatar
    March 2009
    6,043 Posts
    I got that on the 20th too but on the 30th I received one talking about the compliance updates and it said:
    That doesn't invalidate the vague 'end of may' statement. It does invalidate the earlier delivery dates they sent though.
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  25. Post #1225
    Gold Member
    Larikang's Avatar
    November 2005
    2,409 Posts
    The only thing that reeeaally annoys me about Python is the mix of OOP and functional programming. Maybe that's just me being used to Ruby, but I just don't get why it's len(mylist) instead of mylist.len() - especially since all that len does is call the internal attribute.

    I understand the appeal of functional programming but mixing it with OOP is annoying. Functional programming is read right-to-left e.g. thirdfunc(secondfunc(firstfunc(x))). OOP is read left-to-right e.g. x.first().second().third(). Combining the two is inconsistent and makes statements hard to read.

    Edit: Also I got basic steering behavior (boids!) implemented in my cow game.
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  26. Post #1226
    calzoneman's Avatar
    February 2008
    460 Posts
    The only thing that reeeaally annoys me about Python is the mix of OOP and functional programming. Maybe that's just me being used to Ruby, but I just don't get why it's len(mylist) instead of mylist.len() - especially since all that len does is call the internal attribute.

    I understand the appeal of functional programming but mixing it with OOP is annoying. Functional programming is read right-to-left e.g. thirdfunc(secondfunc(firstfunc(x))). OOP is read left-to-right e.g. x.first().second().third(). Combining the two is inconsistent and makes statements hard to read.

    Edit: Also I got basic steering behavior (boids!) implemented in my cow game.
    WAYWO: v. What Everyone Doesn't Like About Python
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  27. Post #1227
    Map in a box's Avatar
    July 2009
    6,577 Posts
    I don't like pythons, they can give you a nasty bite. On the other hand, Python can give you a nasty byte on the hand of an ugly API. But since Python knows Lua/C++, it should be fine, right?
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  28. Post #1228
    itty-bitty pretty kitty
    supersnail11's Avatar
    September 2008
    8,782 Posts
    Ok so I have a question for you guys. Next year I'm going to university and following Computer Science. I'm really excited, even more since I started lurking this thread (it's awesome) so I wanted to start doing programming stuff already. They will be teaching Java next year (at least the first semesters, later on also Pascal and C and some other stuff) So I thought I'd find some nice tutorials and just go with it and get started. (are these any good http://eclipsetutorial.sourceforge.n...beginner.html? Also found 'thenewboston' on youtube, how are those tutorials?)

    Anyway, suddenly I found out about Udacity, so I thought, Awesome! and enrolled right away. But they teach you Python which you guys don't seem to like.
    So my question is, what would be a smart choice? Go with Udacity, follow the Java tutorials or do something completely different?

    I don't really have any previous programming experience, except for some HTML/CSS and Javascript knowledge.
    Python is a great way to learn programming syntax and theory. And you should learn to whitespace properly anyways if you program.
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  29. Post #1229
    RUBY OVERLORD
    swift and shift's Avatar
    November 2011
    2,115 Posts
    python 3 is retarded and bundled map, reduce, etc into a module that you have to import

    import functools
    functools.map(lambda x: x*x, [1,2,3])

    wat
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  30. Post #1230
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    WAYWO: v. What Everyone Doesn't Like About Python
    what are you complaining about? "oh my goodness programmers are talking about programming in the programming subforum, somebody stop this madness!!!"
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  31. Post #1231
    Icedshot's Avatar
    April 2010
    2,224 Posts
    I ran into an awesome one today: OpenCL does no checks whatsoever on the size of the buffer that you're working with from within the kernels themselves like even regular C will do. I allocated buffers 1,2,3,4 and 5 all in sequence, and ran a few kernels against clusters of them. I ran a kernel that indexed into buffer 4 outside of it's range and instead of blowing up OpenCL just followed the memory indexing and started writing random shit to buffer 2.

    Fun stuff, but it's great when you figure out the problems and things just sort of click.
    Sometimes OpenCL blows up when you do that, sometimes it doesn't

    Its completely undefined, and because of the lack of debugging it can take a while to spot that something's gone wrong. It annoys me sometimes, but i still love OpenCL anyway due to the massive speed bonus you get for parallel tasks
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  32. Post #1232
    Dotmister's Avatar
    May 2008
    898 Posts
    To break up the Python discussion, here is some progress on the Steam application for WP7. Chat now works. Photographs of the application running on an actual device.



    Even if it doesn't handle huge chunks of text brilliantly.. as demonstrated by the end of a large block of lorem ipsum.

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  33. Post #1233
    Icedshot's Avatar
    April 2010
    2,224 Posts
    what are you complaining about? "oh my goodness programmers are talking about programming in the programming subforum, somebody stop this madness!!!"
    Waywo has always been a discussion thread as well as a content thread

    I can't see why debating the relative merits of a language is a particularly bad thing.

    Instead of going "you people stupid", it would be much more productive for everyone if he created the other side of the argument
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  34. Post #1234
    RUBY OVERLORD
    swift and shift's Avatar
    November 2011
    2,115 Posts
    compare to:

    [1,2,3].map { |x| x*x }

    or

    map { $_ * $_ } (1, 2, 3);
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  35. Post #1235
    The Kakistocrat's Avatar
    November 2011
    1,353 Posts
    if you guys don't like python, what scripting language do you guys like? Lua? Ruby?
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  36. Post #1236
    Gold Member
    ShaunOfTheLive's Avatar
    November 2007
    9,613 Posts
    what are you complaining about? "oh my goodness programmers are talking about programming in the programming subforum, somebody stop this madness!!!"
    This thread is supposed to be a showcase of what people are actually working on. If they want to talk about the merits of Python, they can start another thread in the subforum.
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  37. Post #1237
    Gold Member
    esalaka's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,888 Posts
    This thread is supposed to be a showcase of what people are actually working on. If they want to talk about the merits of Python, they can start another thread in the subforum.
    Waywo has always been a discussion thread as well as a content thread

    I can't see why debating the relative merits of a language is a particularly bad thing.

    Instead of going "you people stupid", it would be much more productive for everyone if he created the other side of the argument
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  38. Post #1238
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    This thread is supposed to be a showcase of what people are actually working on. If they want to talk about the merits of Python, they can start another thread in the subforum.
    hey welcome to waywo ill be your tour guide, a few things you should know:

    we talk about lots of stuff here

    alright enjoy your stay man!

    Edited:

    To break up the Python discussion, here is some progress on the Steam application for WP7. Chat now works. Photographs of the application running on an actual device.



    Even if it doesn't handle huge chunks of text brilliantly.. as demonstrated by the end of a large block of lorem ipsum.

    that's ridiculously snazzy, nice job
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  39. Post #1239
    AtomiCasd's Avatar
    June 2011
    588 Posts
    This thread is supposed to be a showcase of what people are actually working on. If they want to talk about the merits of Python, they can start another thread in the subforum.
    I read your comment and applied a nasal monotone noise. It fits you.
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  40. Post #1240
    Gold Member
    ryandaniels's Avatar
    December 2006
    3,888 Posts
    Whenever I do the whole "modify a float by extremely small amount" thing, like when you need to force your calculations to be on one side of a surface or the other, rather than "exactly" on the surface, which results in a random yes/no result, I feel unsure what the best practice is.

    To the point- how many zero's or nine's or am I supposed to put to the right of the decimal?
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