1. Post #361
    Gold Member
    Keyblockor's Avatar
    October 2007
    4,895 Posts
    I do believe we are hard on religion and the people who are idiots, but I also believe we need to be.

    What is entirely different is that Facepunch is too zealous in it's athiests manners, becoming a zealot "for rational thought" and ridiculing those who actually don't need deserve it as some people have actually said akin to this in other threads.
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  2. Post #362
    Gold Member
    sgman91's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,296 Posts
    So then a gorilla would also be an atheist...
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  3. Post #363
    Gold Member
    strayebyrd's Avatar
    July 2008
    7,760 Posts
    So then a gorilla would also be an atheist...
    well technically yeah, but that's like saying a gorilla doesn't have political affiliations.
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  4. Post #364
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    Actually, for a human being to be an atheist in this society, now, he HAS to actively reject the idea of god. So yes, you have to be indoctrinated to actively reject the idea of a god.
    Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.
    Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.
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  5. Post #365
    Ask me about my .gif fetish
    st0rmforce's Avatar
    February 2008
    3,594 Posts
    Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.
    Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.
    ...for a given value of true.
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  6. Post #366
    Dennab
    December 2009
    542 Posts
    Atheism basically is a religion anyway. Atheists have faith that there is no God. Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist.


    That being said. I was raised by extremist Christians and had to go to school with the smugest, cock sucking homeschoolers of all time. If the kids I went to "school" with knew I was in the Infantry, dipping, drinking, swearing and occasionally fucking the barracks whore; They'd shun me forever for not going to some private christian college and studying religious science or being a preacher. I'm a christian but to put it bluntly, I fucking HATE the Christian people I know.
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  7. Post #367
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Atheism basically is a religion anyway.
    It's about as much of a religion as bald is a hair color.

    Atheists have faith that there is no God.
    No

    Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
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  8. Post #368
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    13,355 Posts
    When you say " Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. " it yanks my brain a little.

    After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.
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  9. Post #369
    Dennab
    December 2009
    542 Posts
    When you say " Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. " it yanks my brain a little.

    After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.
    That's a theory.
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  10. Post #370
    Annotated Reader Lapsed Pacifist
    The_J_Hat's Avatar
    December 2008
    12,061 Posts
    Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.
    Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.
    But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
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  11. Post #371
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    That's a theory.
    Is that supposed to be a serious jab at evolution.

    But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
    That's bullshit. God's existence can be proven or disproved using logical arguments.
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  12. Post #372
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
    Before Newton came up with the idea of gravity it was believed that god pulled things to the ground when they fell.

    Edited:

    And just dropping a pencil doesn't show that gravity is what keeps the Earth orbiting the sun.
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  13. Post #373
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
    Wrong. If a hypothesis is unfalsifiable it lacks credibility and cannot be said to be true until proven.
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  14. Post #374
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.
    so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact?

    Edited:

    And just dropping a pencil doesn't show that gravity is what keeps the Earth orbiting the sun.
    Absolutely. Gravity is shown as F=G((m1)(m2)/r^2). Do you happen to have the equation that disproves the existance of a deity on hand?
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  15. Post #375
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact?
    Do you have concrete evidence that God does exist?
    Or how about evidence that Zeus or some other god who isn't your god doesn't exist.

    We don't need to disprove every fairy tale that you can come up with. Just because you can think of something utterly ridiculous doesn't mean someone else needs to take time out of their day to prove your silly thoughts don't exist in reality.
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  16. Post #376
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    You asserted that god not existing was fact.

    Fact:

    1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed
    2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation
    3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case
    4. (often plural) law an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge
    5. (philosophy) a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement

    You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things. Ball is in your court.
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  17. Post #377
    Gold Member
    Sottalytober's Avatar
    May 2009
    4,572 Posts
    It's about as much of a religion as bald is a hair color.



    No



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
    The problem with The Problem of Evil is that god can fit so many definitions. The idea behind The Problem of Evil is sound, but only for some specific forms of god. (Bare with me) There is the idea that god is the all knowing all caring man in the moon who see's us as his children - and there you can see where why the idea of why evil exists comes from. But what if you have a god that's created us as an antfarm type deal. You know those little spaceage ant farms that they have? Like that. He provided the resources for life and lets us live it without interruption. Ant 1 may have had his family killed by ant 2 and be praying to god for help - but how would you know if you can't hear/understand them?
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  18. Post #378
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,608 Posts
    You asserted that god not existing was fact.
    The 'inexistence of god' is not fact, but it does not need to be. There is no sense in disproving something that was never proven to begin with. Not only that, but in most cases if one tried to disprove God (the Judeo-Christian god more specifically), they would be unable to because said god has set itself up in conditions that prevent it from being disproven or proven.

    So, to say that you "can't prove or disprove god's existence" is an empty statement, it's like saying "you can't prove or disprove that unicorns exist". Technically it is true, but any level-headed person wouldn't take it seriously because unicorns were never proven to exist in the first place, meaning that it isn't necessary to disprove their existence.
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  19. Post #379
    Gold Member
    Sottalytober's Avatar
    May 2009
    4,572 Posts
    Is that supposed to be a serious jab at evolution.



    That's bullshit. God's existence can be proven or disproved using logical arguments.
    Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)
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  20. Post #380
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things.
    Since god cannot be observed or proved, it's safe to assume he does not exist.
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  21. Post #381
    oldeskoolfan's Avatar
    July 2010
    281 Posts
    so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact?

    Edited:



    Absolutely. Gravity is shown as F=G((m1)(m2)/r^2). Do you happen to have the equation that disproves the existance of a deity on hand?
    The burden of proof or disproving doesn't rest on science. Religion makes the claims that God does exist and has to prove it undeniably.
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  22. Post #382
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    The 'inexistence of god' is not fact, but it does not need to be. There is no sense in disproving something that was never proven to begin with. Not only that, but in most cases if one tried to disprove God (the Judeo-Christian god more specifically), they would be unable to because said god has set itself up in conditions that prevent it from being disproven or proven.

    So, to say that you "can't prove or disprove god's existence" is an empty statement, it's like saying "you can't prove or disprove that unicorns exist". Technically it is true, but any level-headed person wouldn't take it seriously because unicorns were never proven to exist in the first place, meaning that it isn't necessary to disprove their existence.
    When you compare god to gravity you're in a little deeper than just saying 'nope'.

    Edited:

    Since god cannot be observed or proved, it's safe to assume he does not exist.
    What do you think of circumstantial evidence in law?
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  23. Post #383
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,608 Posts
    Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)
    Yes, but generally when you're talking about whether or not something exists within the context of a debate, logic is pretty fucking important.

    Edited:

    When you compare god to gravity you're in a little deeper than just saying 'nope'.
    At what point in that post did I mention gravity?
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  24. Post #384
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    You asserted that god not existing was fact.

    Fact:

    1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed
    2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation
    3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case
    4. (often plural) law an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge
    5. (philosophy) a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement

    You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things. Ball is in your court.
    I don't see where he asserted that god not existing was a fact, it seems like you just made that assumption after the comparison to gravity. Not all atheists go as far to say that god not existing is a fact.

    I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either.


    The problem with The Problem of Evil is that god can fit so many definitions. The idea behind The Problem of Evil is sound, but only for some specific forms of god. (Bare with me) There is the idea that god is the all knowing all caring man in the moon who see's us as his children - and there you can see where why the idea of why evil exists comes from. But what if you have a god that's created us as an antfarm type deal. You know those little spaceage ant farms that they have? Like that. He provided the resources for life and lets us live it without interruption. Ant 1 may have had his family killed by ant 2 and be praying to god for help - but how would you know if you can't hear/understand them?
    Yes, and that's why I'm only applying it to the god of the bible, who is said to be all loving, all knowing, and all good.

    He also intervened several times in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament by sending Jesus, so the "god can't/won't intervene" argument is invalid. Also if god can't hear or understand "ant 1" then he isn't all-knowing (which is one of the qualities this god is said to have)

    Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)
    If you're going to seriously try to argue this then we have nothing further to discuss.
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  25. Post #385
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    At what point in that post did I mention gravity?
    PvtCupcakes implied that believing in god was the same as not believing in gravity and you attacked my attack on his comment.

    Edited:

    I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either.
    Logically impossible if you believe that he's a puppetmaster and we're all tied to the strings of fate, but that's an entirely different argument. When did we stop debating what this thread was made for?
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  26. Post #386
    Wet Birds
    Levithan's Avatar
    September 2005
    8,153 Posts
    Atheism basically is a religion anyway.
    Fuck all, that's it everyone go home show's over.

    Rational thought as been debunked go to bed already.
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  27. Post #387
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Logically impossible if you believe that he's a puppetmaster and we're all tied to the strings of fate, but that's an entirely different argument. When did we stop debating what this thread was made for?
    If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it.

    If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.
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  28. Post #388
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,608 Posts
    PvtCupcakes implied that believing in god was the same as not believing in gravity and you attacked my attack on his comment.
    Ah, my bad. I was trying to say something independent of his comment.
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  29. Post #389
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it.

    If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.
    Not every theist believes in predestiny. Wouldn't make much sense either to have a reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deeds if you're locked in to one or the other from birth, would it? Again, denominational beliefs have little bearing on whether or not Facepunch is too hard on religion at large.
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  30. Post #390
    Annotated Reader Lapsed Pacifist
    The_J_Hat's Avatar
    December 2008
    12,061 Posts
    I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either.

    If you're going to seriously try to argue this then we have nothing further to discuss.
    I think Satan explains the evil part.
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  31. Post #391
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Not every theist believes in predestiny. Wouldn't make much sense either to have a reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deeds if you're locked in to one or the other from birth, would it? Again, denominational beliefs have little bearing on whether or not Facepunch is too hard on religion at large.
    Of course that wouldn't make sense.. now you might be seeing where I'm getting at with this.

    I know that many theists believe in free will, but they will virtually always agree that god is all knowing, and I'm arguing that there is a logical contradiction between the existence of an all knowing god and free will.

    I think Satan explains the evil part.
    Well it really doesn't, because then you have to explain why Satan was able to exist in the first place, given that the future was known to god, and why an all powerful god allows him to steal his creations souls to torture them for eternity.
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  32. Post #392
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    Or just good old fashioned evil human beings. I think atheists can recognize that men can be evil out of their own volition.
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  33. Post #393
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Or just good old fashioned evil human beings. I think atheists can recognize that men can be evil out of their own volition.
    Then why were we created with such a glaring flaw like the capacity to do evil things? Are you arguing that god didn't see these things coming despite being all knowing?
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  34. Post #394
    Annotated Reader Lapsed Pacifist
    The_J_Hat's Avatar
    December 2008
    12,061 Posts
    If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.
    God gave all of His creations free will. Satan has this free will and can inflict his injustices upon this world.
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  35. Post #395
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    God gave all of His creations free will. Satan has this free will and can inflict his injustices upon this world.
    And if you look at my other posts you would see that I've been arguing against that claim.

    If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it.
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  36. Post #396
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    Knowing the future doesn't mean dictating the future
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  37. Post #397
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Knowing the future doesn't mean dictating the future
    So if he knows a child is going to be raped tomorrow why won't he stop it? He was willing to kill off the Earth's entire population in a flood but he's not willing to step in, even in the most subtle way that doesn't reveal his existence, to stop the rape tomorrow?
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  38. Post #398
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    Because if evil didn't exist there would be no point in heaven and hell? If this life is shitty but temporary and if you're good the one after is perfect why would this life be perfect?
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  39. Post #399
    Annotated Reader Lapsed Pacifist
    The_J_Hat's Avatar
    December 2008
    12,061 Posts
    I've argued this point before (in one of your threads too, Noble). God has a plan in the end. How we get there is another matter. There is a series of paths anyone can take, correct or incorrect, but we all reach it in the end with death. Where we go when we die is determined by how we live. If we were wholesome, generally good people, then we probably go to Heaven. If we were murderers, theives, generally bad people, then Hell it is.

    God knows about all of our paths. He merely put us on Earth to see how we act and if we were worthy of Heaven.

    I remember talking about this to someone a while ago and he then said that we were all previously in Heaven, but when Satan began his takeover, God placed us on Earth to see whether or not we were on His side as humans.

    I'm not sure if I agree with this theory, but I felt that it was worth bringing up.
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  40. Post #400
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Because if evil didn't exist there would be no point in heaven and hell? If this life is shitty but temporary and if you're good the one after is perfect why would this life be perfect?
    That doesn't address why this god allows hell to exist in the first place though. And it's basically in other words just admitting that god allows evil in the world.

    Bertrand Russell also had a response to this argument:

    “If you looked at the matter from a scientific point of view, you would say, ‘After all, I only know this world. I do not know about the rest of the universe, but so far as one can argue at all on probabilities one would say that probably this world is a fair sample, and if there is injustice here then the odds are that there is injustice elsewhere also.’ Supposing you got a crate of oranges that you opened, and you found all the top layer of oranges bad, you would not argue: ‘The underneath ones must be good, so as to redress the balance.’ You would say: ‘Probably the whole lot is a bad consignment;’ and that is really what a scientific person would argue about the universe. He would say: ‘Here we find in this world a great deal of injustice, and so far as that goes that is a reason for supposing that justice does not rule in the world; and therefore so far as it goes it affords a moral argument against deity and not in favor of one.’”
    -Bertrand Russell, Why I am not a Christian


    I've argued this point before (in one of your threads too, Noble). God has a plan in the end. How we get there is another matter. There is a series of paths anyone can take, correct or incorrect, but we all reach it in the end with death. Where we go when we die is determined by how we live. If we were wholesome, generally good people, then we probably go to Heaven. If we were murderers, theives, generally bad people, then Hell it is.

    God knows about all of our paths. He merely put us on Earth to see how we act and if we were worthy of Heaven.

    I remember talking about this to someone a while ago and he then said that we were all previously in Heaven, but when Satan began his takeover, God placed us on Earth to see whether or not we were on His side as humans.

    I'm not sure if I agree with this theory, but I felt that it was worth bringing up.
    Again this doesn't address why god allows a place as horrible as Hell to exist given that he's all powerful. On top of that, it doesn't explain evils of the natural world, like earthquakes and hurricanes. It's also saying that god allows evil (like murder), which is going to "test" a person's actions at an innocent person's expense (their life in the case of murder).
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