1. Post #281
    Gold Member
    yuki's Avatar
    December 2006
    4,209 Posts
    1. The crusades weren't religiously motivated. They were really land grabs made by power hungry officials and religion was only used as a motivater to get people rallied up (i.e. a misuse of religion).

    2. The Nazis weren't religiously motivated and they persecuted Catholics, Jews, anybody they could find that they didn't like.
    Both of these are completely incorrect.
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  2. Post #282
    Tuba Player Extraordinaire
    Funcoot's Avatar
    January 2006
    3,592 Posts
    I find it quite ironic how facepunch generally denounces bigots and the such, but is, in general, completely bigoted towards religion and religious people, when it really isn't so black and white.

    Edited:

    Both of these are completely incorrect.
    How were the Nazi's religiously motivated?
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  3. Post #283
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    How were the Nazi's religiously motivated?
    Aside from the quotes mentioned on the last page, here is a picture of the belt buckles that were issued to Nazi soldiers.

    http://i.imgur.com/xqsgo.jpg

    It says "God with us"
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  4. Post #284
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    1. the first sentence is the only religious statement and it has nothing to do with controlling or persuading the masses
    2. did you actually read this before you tried to use it to assert that religion was a driving factor in nazism or are you grabbing quotes left and right from wikipedia in a desperate bid to win this argument
    Please ignore the fact that it says, 'Christianity originated in Aryan religious tradition', and only address that which you see unfit for quoting. The rest is there to show, 'The book became popular, especially in Germany.'

    As in, it did affect the population.

    But it's fine, continue retarding the progress of this argument.

    hitler told people that jesus was racist while not believing in jesus at all, solid argument

    either way, you're trying to argue that christianity itself is bad because hitler used it, which is like saying extended magazines are bad because jared loughner used them when he shot gabrielle giffords

    is it the type of ammunition or the firing of the gun that does the damage?
    I'm arguing that Christianity aided in the upheaval of Hitler and co. in Germany, and that he was Roman Catholic, and wanted to unite the country using that religion, but ultimately wanted a religion free Germany.

    You sure know how to ignore every point presented, don't you. Stop assuming some stupid stance like, 'either way, you're trying to argue that christianity itself is bad because hitler used it', and learn to fucking read the previous posts.
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  5. Post #285
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    Well tell me how many religious people are truly religious by choice. How many of them went from not having a religion, to choosing to have a religion. Versus those who are raised to be religious, who are told it is the truth, and that are taught not to doubt.

    Unlike people who say that "Science and religon are not incompatible", I disagree. Religion teaches us to not doubt and to have belief, science teaches us to always doubt what we can't prove. It is because of this that science allows us to progress, because truth comes from questioning the uncertain.
    1. I'm pantheist and was raised in a Christian household by Christian parents. YEP, I'M OBVIOUSLY BRAINWASHED.

    2. Pantheism. Yes, there's SO much that doesn't make me question the world. Because pantheism definitely doesn't make me want to discover more about my own fucking gods.
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  6. Post #286
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    1. I'm pantheist and was raised in a Christian household by Christian parents. YEP, I'M OBVIOUSLY BRAINWASHED.

    2. Pantheism. Yes, there's SO much that doesn't make me question the world. Because pantheism definitely doesn't make me want to discover more about my own fucking gods.
    The majority of people are susceptible to religious bullshit/brainwashing/indoctrination.
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  7. Post #287
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    The majority of people are susceptible to religious bullshit/brainwashing/indoctrination.
    And...?
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  8. Post #288
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    Unless you're fat enough to contain seven billion people, they all won't be just like you.
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  9. Post #289
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    1. I'm pantheist and was raised in a Christian household by Christian parents. YEP, I'M OBVIOUSLY BRAINWASHED.

    2. Pantheism. Yes, there's SO much that doesn't make me question the world. Because pantheism definitely doesn't make me want to discover more about my own fucking gods.
    Read
    Simski posted:
    the ones who became religious by choice at an age where they had developed enough to make the decision entirely by their own will without the influence of their upbringing are the only religious people I will ever respect.
    and
    Simski posted:
    If no organized religion existed, religion by all means would never be an issue for anyone and it would not matter in the least what anyone believed. However religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and the likes all have one very essential thing in common, they all dictate the way you should think and live your life.
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  10. Post #290
    Gold Member
    Recurracy's Avatar
    August 2009
    11,474 Posts
    I don't give a fuck if people believe, honestly, but I think religion (or at least Santorum) should sort of stay out of politics. I understand why people think abortion is bad because God and all, but we're in 2012 not in 100 AC.

    Edited:

    My grandma is religious and I'd always listen to her prayers she'd do when I went to bed because it's actually pretty calming.
    Once, when I was 12 or so, I asked her: "Do you really believe there is someone up there who created Earth and tells us what to do?" All she said was "We'll talk about this later, okay?" She still hasn't answered my question.
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  11. Post #291
    Ask me about my .gif fetish
    st0rmforce's Avatar
    February 2008
    3,594 Posts
    The majority of people are susceptible to religious bullshit/brainwashing/indoctrination.
    [citation needed]
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  12. Post #292
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    [citation needed]
    83 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination, 40 percent state that they attend services nearly every week or more, and 58 percent say that they pray at least weekly.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._United_States
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  13. Post #293
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    You're still assuming that all 83 percent were indoctrinated into it.

    Edited:

    Read


    and
    I'm sorry, but thinking that organized religion is going to go away is just plain ignorant. It's just another power structure. Some use it for good, some use it for bad.
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  14. Post #294
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    You're still assuming that all 83 percent were indoctrinated into it.
    I'm sorry if I don't see another reason why stupidity runs rampant in one of the most recently formed countries.
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  15. Post #295
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    I'm sorry, but thinking that organized religion is going to go away is just plain ignorant. It's just another power structure. Some use it for good, some use it for bad.
    I'm not expecting it to go away. It can stay, but it damn well better not try to impose its views on my government or I will have a very good reason to not want it around.
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  16. Post #296
    Ask me about my .gif fetish
    st0rmforce's Avatar
    February 2008
    3,594 Posts
    This is why I think that the answer to the OP question is yes.
    You seem to have no trouble presenting your own interpretation of some statistics (based on your own opinion) as if it's a fact. If you did that with any other subject, or the same subject but being positive towards religion, you'd have somebody shouting at you very quickly. Shouldn't this sort of thing be frowned upon, regardless of the subject?
    I have no idea what the percentage of Christians get there by indoctrination, but I'm pretty sure that you don't either. I don't even know if there is a reliable way to find out.

    In my own opinion: A. There are a great deal of Christians who come from non-religious backgrounds, and B. Forcing kids to go to church is more likely to stop them becoming a Christian, than if you let them make up their own minds.

    I'm willing to believe that these opinions are skewed by my experiences in the area that I live in and due to the fact that I'm one of those Christians with a non-religious background. It's probably also skewed just by the fact that I am a Christian, so my thoughts about the church tend to be biased towards the positive. It's very difficult to have a completely unbiased opinion, because you have to see every side equally. I think it's nearly impossible to see every side of something as big as religion, as it can be completely different from place to place, depending on the people that are part of it.
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  17. Post #297
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    I'm sorry if I don't see another reason why stupidity runs rampant in one of the most recently formed countries.
    And I'm sorry that you're ignoring a good portion of reality.
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  18. Post #298
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    [citation needed]
    You just need to find statistics of how many people follow the same religion as their parents.
    I haven't seen a study like this, but I presume a huge number of people are the same religion as their parents. This would be explained by how susceptible children are to indoctrination. I would say these people didn't really choose to believe in God because it was the only option presented to them.

    Edited:

    It's not like some bible humping parents are going to present an array of religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, and atheism and then explain the pros and cons of each. They're going to say JESUS LOVES YOU, ACCEPT HIM AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR.
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  19. Post #299
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    It would be nice if every parent allowed their child to be open minded, presenting the facts and then letting their child decide for themselves what to believe. However in reality, you know this doesn't happen. The baby will be baptized, sent off to Sunday school and/or CCD programs to learn about Jesus and get threats of hell pounded into their head early on.
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  20. Post #300
    Gold Member
    Satane's Avatar
    March 2007
    3,580 Posts
    i don't think we're ready for mass atheism, we're simply too stupid.
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  21. Post #301
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    This is why I think that the answer to the OP question is yes.
    You seem to have no trouble presenting your own interpretation of some statistics (based on your own opinion) as if it's a fact. If you did that with any other subject, or the same subject but being positive towards religion, you'd have somebody shouting at you very quickly. Shouldn't this sort of thing be frowned upon, regardless of the subject?
    I have no idea what the percentage of Christians get there by indoctrination, but I'm pretty sure that you don't either. I don't even know if there is a reliable way to find out.

    In my own opinion: A. There are a great deal of Christians who come from non-religious backgrounds, and B. Forcing kids to go to church is more likely to stop them becoming a Christian, than if you let them make up their own minds.

    I'm willing to believe that these opinions are skewed by my experiences in the area that I live in and due to the fact that I'm one of those Christians with a non-religious background. It's probably also skewed just by the fact that I am a Christian, so my thoughts about the church tend to be biased towards the positive. It's very difficult to have a completely unbiased opinion, because you have to see every side equally. I think it's nearly impossible to see every side of something as big as religion, as it can be completely different from place to place, depending on the people that are part of it.
    Just get the amount of children that are 'religious'

    Edited:

    And I'm sorry that you're ignoring a good portion of reality.
    It's funny, because that trash has nothing to do with reality.
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  22. Post #302
    Gold Member
    Kung Fu Jew's Avatar
    November 2006
    5,681 Posts
    you can never be too hard on religion.

    spirituality, though, that's something completely different.
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  23. Post #303
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    You just need to find statistics of how many people follow the same religion as their parents.
    You only have free will if you do the opposite of what others tell you to do? Tell me, please, how you believe that is a logical argument.

    Edited:

    Just get the amount of children that are 'religious'
    you too, mister makes-up-statistics
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  24. Post #304
    Gold Member
    yuki's Avatar
    December 2006
    4,209 Posts
    How were the Nazi's religiously motivated?
    I thought it was common knowledge that Hitler was a religious zealot and that his speeches most usually consisted of zealotry.

    Then again that's not exactly taught in public schools. They show him speaking but they never provide subtitles for a reason.
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  25. Post #305
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    You only have free will if you do the opposite of what others tell you to do? Tell me, please, how you believe that is a logical argument.
    I didn't mean that everyone who has the same religion as their parents was indoctrinated. But if something like 90-95% of people follow the same belief you could say something is going on. That's not implying 90% are indoctrinated, but many of them are.
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  26. Post #306
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    'many' is not a statistic and 'a lot' is not reliable
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  27. Post #307
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    It's funny, because that trash has nothing to do with reality.
    And that's funny, because last time I checked, religion still fucking exists.
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  28. Post #308
    Mudbone's Avatar
    August 2007
    972 Posts
    Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum and Rick Perry.

    This is why. Keep your religion out of the government and keep it to yourself. Don't agree with gay marriage don't have one.
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  29. Post #309
    Behemoth_PT's Avatar
    March 2007
    1,923 Posts
    As a Christian in Europe, Im usually forced to recognize that some people inside Christianity look upon different people with prejudice and try to justify their intolerance of what's different with quotes from the bible.

    On the other hand I also hear lots of unfair generalizations upon Christians too. Most of them accusing us of being homophobic, Creationists, Child Molesters, fundamentalists. It's almost like how romans saw the Christians back then.

    The Bible also has lots of disturbing episodes in it, true, but when you come to think of it, most of that stuff is to be analyzed according to the cultures of the peoples of that time.

    I strongly believe that this is more a problem of western society than a problem with religion itself.

    Now, touching the core of Christianity, it's easy to see that there's a very intense and good message behind all the splendour and wonder of the churches, the popes, that Heaven and Hell dilemma and so on.

    You see, apart from all the miracles and "magic tricks" - that most people (believers and non believers) think it's the core of Christianity - we have to look at Jesus from a historical point of view.
    We're talking about a Roman Occupied middle east, we're talking about slavery, hard labour, etc etc.
    Roman society had total disregard for what we call today human rights and Hebrew society had an excessive zeal with their religion and costumes, and Jesus came to peacefully oppose all those abuses. We're talking about unwanted newborn babies thrown to the woods, slavery, throwing old people and sick people to die in the desert, sacrifices in the name of false bloodthirsty gods and on the other hand we had the Hebrew people who was very fundamentalist and enforced their ways on everybody.

    Jesus Christ came to put an end to that, he came to say that a slave is the same as any other roman, that women don't deserve to be stoned to death, that the sick should be treated fairly and that one should also work on the sabbath. As a hebrew he used to heal in the sabbath. He denied all the mighty and powerful gods and said there was only one humble and complacent god that only wanted us to be there for each-other as equals despite how different we are.

    Basically he came to tell us what TODAY we already know but back then wasn't important. He brought hope to an oppressed and helpless people and in the end was crucified for it.

    And we can only imagine how powerful were his actions and words by the thinks that were written about him and by the movement he created around him and his death.

    After the Death of Christ millions of people converted to Christianity despite the consequences (Death). Whenever there was a plague in Rome, doctors used to escape it while chirstians helped heal the plague victims. When a child would be abandoned in the woods, Christians would adopt that child. And so on.

    That is the true message of christianity and not that "Miracle & Magic Heaven and Hell" bullshit that most fundamentalists shove on everyone's face.

    So, yes, sometimes I feel there is prejudice upon the church from some people and vice versa. I don't feel it's a problem with religion. Just idiocy from both sides and good old intolerance for what is different.
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  30. Post #310
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    And that's funny, because last time I checked, religion still fucking exists.
    You still haven't proved your point that none of the 83% of religious people in America have been indoctrinated.

    Edited:

    And...?
    U.S. Pop.; 313,025,262 (83% of this is 259 810 967 (Religious))

    Families with own children under 18; 34,588,368 (278,436,894 non families)

    And if 83% of that is religious; 28,708,345

    That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.
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  31. Post #311
    Ask me about my .gif fetish
    st0rmforce's Avatar
    February 2008
    3,594 Posts
    You still haven't proved your point that none of the 83% of religious people in America have been indoctrinated.

    Edited:



    U.S. Pop.; 313,025,262 (83% of this is 259 810 967 (Religious))

    Families with own children under 18; 34,588,368 (278,436,894 non families)

    And if 83% of that is religious; 28,708,345

    That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.
    Wait wait wait, what is that thing that theists are always told about on this forum? Burden of proof?
    You seem to be the one claiming that somewhere between "all" and "most" of these people are indoctrinated.
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  32. Post #312
    Annotated Reader Lapsed Pacifist
    The_J_Hat's Avatar
    December 2008
    11,412 Posts
    So just because people pray, attend church, and identify with religion means we're all just a bunch of mindless slaves brainwashed by our parents?

    And you say that people are being stupid...

    Numbers don't mean anything.
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  33. Post #313
    Mon
    Mon's Avatar
    April 2011
    4,102 Posts
    You still haven't proved your point that none of the 83% of religious people in America have been indoctrinated.

    Edited:



    U.S. Pop.; 313,025,262 (83% of this is 259 810 967 (Religious))

    Families with own children under 18; 34,588,368 (278,436,894 non families)

    And if 83% of that is religious; 28,708,345

    That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.
    so are you saying that all religious people are indocrinated?
    that seems more than a little closed minded
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  34. Post #314
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    so are you saying that all religious people are indocrinated?
    that seems more than a little closed minded
    That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.

    Po

    Ten

    Tial

    Edited:

    Wait wait wait, what is that thing that theists are always told about on this forum? Burden of proof?
    You seem to be the one claiming that somewhere between "all" and "most" of these people are indoctrinated.
    I'm speculating, and have given evidence and support of my claim.
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  35. Post #315
    Most wanteD's Avatar
    February 2006
    543 Posts
    As a not-so-devout Christian, I don't think you are too hard on religion. Heck, you don't run through the streets slaughtering us, do you?

    On the real, we don't all have to be so condescending to each other. I've had plenty of atheist friends whom I've gotten along with perfectly well. We just hung out and everything was dandy. Of course I was younger then, but I'm optimistic enough to believe that would still be the case today. The trouble is when people assemble on internet forums to try to maliciously, sometimes militantly, disprove what they disagree with.

    Achieve true separation of church and state and be satisfied; if a religious nut-job tries to convert you, kindly request that they leave you alone. If they don't leave you alone... Shame on them.
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  36. Post #316
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    I'm speculating, and have given evidence and support of my claim.
    Quoting the total percentage of religious citizens is no more evidence of or support for indoctrination than quoting the total percentage of high school dropouts is evidence of or support for drug use as a cause. Saying "this amount of people in America is religious, therefore most of them are indoctrinated" makes as little sense as saying "this amount of people dropped out of high school, therefore most of them smoked pot."
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  37. Post #317
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    Quoting the total percentage of religious citizens is no more evidence of or support for indoctrination than quoting the total percentage of high school dropouts is evidence of or support for drug use as a cause. Saying "this amount of people in America is religious, therefore most of them are indoctrinated" makes as little sense as saying "this amount of people dropped out of high school, therefore most of them smoked pot."
    Except if you read the fucking post, I showed the amount of religious families with CHILDREN UNDER 18.

    I then stated 'That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.'
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  38. Post #318
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    I think it's fair to call anyone under 18 who is Christian and has Christian parents indoctrinated.
    Indoctrination is defined as: teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.

    The uncritically part is important because Christianity would look silly to anyone with just an ounce of critical thought.

    There is a lot to be said about having something so blatantly false shoved down a child's throat they'll believe the lie until they die. Many parents even get their kids to believe in Santa, but they mercifully let them in on the joke.
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  39. Post #319
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    I think it's fair to call anyone under 18 who is Christian and has Christian parents indoctrinated.
    Indoctrination is defined as: teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.

    The uncritically part is important because Christianity would look silly to anyone with just an ounce of critical thought.

    There is a lot to be said about having something so blatantly false shoved down a child's throat they'll believe the lie until they die. Many parents even get their kids to believe in Santa, but they mercifully let them in on the joke.
    There we go. Read this post before you other guys respond.
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  40. Post #320
    Gold Member
    sgman91's Avatar
    July 2006
    3,787 Posts
    Except if you read the fucking post, I showed the amount of religious families with CHILDREN UNDER 18.

    I then stated 'That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.'
    The potential for something in this context literally has zero value in a discussion. (unless it's quantum physics, then it's very important!)

    Edited:

    I think it's fair to call anyone under 18 who is Christian and has Christian parents indoctrinated.
    Indoctrination is defined as: teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.

    The uncritically part is important because Christianity would look silly to anyone with just an ounce of critical thought.

    There is a lot to be said about having something so blatantly false shoved down a child's throat they'll believe the lie until they die. Many parents even get their kids to believe in Santa, but they mercifully let them in on the joke.
    You say that, but simply put, you have no proof of it. I can just as easily say that it's fair to say anyone under 18 who is atheist and has atheist parents are indoctrinated. (I don't believe this, but it holds the same value)
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