I'd love it if Valve reversed the damage nerf of stock flamer and gave it to Back Burner. The degreaser should have an effect that reduces on-demand crit to minicrits for 1 to 1.5 seconds after switching to melee/secondary, that way you can't instakill 90% of the enemies that suddenly appear in front of you without making Axetinguisher completely shit.
And besides that, it's not like Pyros don't take corners as tightly as they can. Call it an ambush all you want, if you and a Pyro stumble into each other when rounding a corner, the Pyro will 100% win if he's using a the Degreaser and Axtinguisher, unless he's almost dead and you get a shot off before he can get you. A Scout might get lucky and jump away, but every other class is fucked. This is different from the same situation with a Heavy, because the Heavy moves at the speed of a turtle when revved, which can give you enough time to find another corner.
+ 65% Faster weapon switch time
- 10% Burn damage penalty
- All critical hits are downgraded to mini-crits
+ 100% critical hit vs burning players
- 50% Damage vs non-burning players
- No critical hits vs non-burning players
NOTE: Basically, Axtinguisher is the same, but Degreaser gets a slight damage buff at the cost of crits being downgraded to mini-crits. This way, the Axtinguisher is still useful while not being cruise control for Pyros. Some will hate this. Which is GOOD. It will encourage Pyros to use something other than Puff N' Sting, meaning more Pybros using the Homewrecker.
Degreaser stays unchaged.
+ 100% critical hit vs burning players
- 50% Damage vs non-burning players
- unaffected by weapon switch speed stats
The problem is when the weapons are used together, just making so all weapons you use with it get worse is not the way to go about it. I'm dead serious when I say "The pyro is doing his job perfectly" because if you're dead he did.
Editing this in, I don't main puff'n sting pyro and not because it feels cheap or is "easy", its just that's not how I play the game, I'm a defensive pyro and I wait for you to come to me, not the other way around.
I can incorporate most of my time into getting kills and playing offensive pyro but I don't like to, I thoroughly enjoy helping my team. I just disagree with thinking that my flamethrower shouldn't be as strong if not stronger than any of the other eight classes main weapons.
Am I the only one who thinks that the flaregun causing crits on burning players instead of minicrits was a bit overkill?
Still, I'm in full support of this idea. Something really does need to be done about the combo (And specifically only the combo of the axtinguisher and the degreaser, I feel the need to clarify. When the topic comes up the first thing users of the combo will do is bring up reasons both weapons separately are balanced, which they are. It is their specific combination that is overpowered.).
If a Pyro gets close to you without you noticing, you are meant to die. Pyros are supposed to lurk behind corners, and be the kings of melee range. But everybody complains about it, for some reason you aren't supposed to die fast after getting a flamethrower to the face.
Things that annoy me: People complaining about Pyros killing them fast at close ranges. The Degreaser is meant to be a combo weapon focusing on the crits Pyros can get, at the cost of lingering damage. Needs a large direct damage penalty and shorter afterburn, so you HAVE to rely on your secondary and Melee.
A Pyro running at you with a degreaser on open ground is going to be ripped to shreds by bullets. Still, Degreaser Puff-n-sting is not "skill", it is easy mode. It needs larger drawbacks than just ones meant to stop the Axtinguisher, which, in my experience, is nowhere near of a problem as it is made to be. A Pyro killing you fast at close range IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN, yet everybody has been complaining about it since 2007. Because people like to complaing.
I don't even use DG+AX, Backburner/Detonator/Backscratcher master race.
I was Demoknight on dustbowl, last stage, last control point. I charged (Chargin' Targe) onto the control point where a Scout was standing, a Pyro behind him, the Scout walked out of my way and the Pyro came step closer. Within miliseconds, I was bruning and had an axe in my face. I had no time to react.
Now YOU tell ME that Pyro was doing it right.
You charged at a Pyro.
I crafted my untradable fez/rambo hair and got a pip boy, which is cool since i've been a lot of playing a lot of fallout
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which i got with the genuine pip boy
If you didnīt saw the pyro... he did his job well "ambushing" you (even if you were the one that went there): I mean, iīm sure you even thougth that scout was a easy victim, and the surprise pissed you off. Almost 90% sure
Really, what is all that different between the demoknight and puff and sting?
Both give crits. Both can instakill most classes. Both dominate in close quarters, and the demoknight doesn't even have to work to get there.
Another thing that annoys me, when someone blames me for something I couldn't really help out with like stopping that scout or stopping that other pyro.
Why can't the pyro have a combat niche? Why does the pyro have to be confined to one role?
All the other classes can pretty much specialize in any scenario given they have the right loadout, why can't the pyro dominate in something? He was designed as a close range combat specialist and yet everyone else tries to decide what they want him to be good at, (which is usually wanting him to be bad.) seriously, every other class has that ONE specific role they are good at, but the pyro just gets kicked around when he does GOOD at his.
Unless you're reffering to the Splendid Screen + Persian Persuader loadout. I wouldn't even consider it as a "Demoknight".
How about we remove the Degreasers Airblast, or atleast remove it's ability to knock back PLAYERS.
That way you can still quick-switch-(actual-skill) projectiles coming towards you, but not fuck up players with the Reserve Flare-Stinguisher.
You can still fuck them up, but the desoriantation is completely fucking overkill, and I MAIN PYRO.
And adding on that:
-100% Critical Hits Vs. Non burning players.
+100% Critical Hits Vs. Burning players who have been on fire for 3 seconds.
-50% Damage Vs. Non burning players.
So you atleast have a chance.
I've been seeing some more Degreaser+Axetinguisher hate again on here.
I necessarily don't like how people think it's balanced and fair because "You can simply just not get in their flamethrower range, boom, countered." That's like saying "Never get in a Sniper's line of sight, or never get caught when you're a Spy". It's bound to happen eventually, there is nothing you can do about out-of-the-blue occurrence.
If he is actually ambushing, good for him, as the Pyro is doing his job. Although, as stated before, he has changed into a psudo-Spy for taking out key targets in a seconds time. But if you simply bump into the Pyro head on without warning, you should at least have a chance to fight back, although this usually isn't the case, as the reaction time is so limited. During the time you are being puffed in the air, you have a split second to assess the situation, turn if needed, and adjust your aim, and shoot, and pray that the Pyro has low enough HP that you'll kill him in 1 or 2 shots, provided you actually hit him, as you probably won't get any more in. Not exactly sporting, it's too much to fight against 1 on 1.
As for W+M1'ing, there really isn't anything to complain about. It at least gives you a fighting chance (more than a split seconds time, without being immobilized) against the Pyro, and is often out-maneuvered.
At least charging Demomen have to re-charge their insta-crit abilities, even if there are some bugs in the system. And Dr. Enforcicle Spies are no more than pests running around picking up all the ammo boxes.
Here I have an idea too
There, since its shit no one will ever play pyro because it takes 3 seconds to kill someone with the flamethrower anyways
Whats the point of the degreasers switch speed if they don't need to switch for three seconds anyways? They are just going to use the backburner and kill you in 2.98 seconds compared to 2.99.
axtinguisher by itself is fine. The standard switch time is long enough to get blasted to bits in before you land a hit.
the degreaser is the one to blame. A good way to understand why the degreaser is unbalanced is to think of it this way : what if all classes had a primary unlock that did the same thing? A scattergun, rocketlauncher, minigun, grenadelauncher, shotgun, syringun, sniper or revolver that have +65% switch time at the cost of -5% damage.
It would be downright broken and overpowered on literally every single character. But since it's for pyro, apparentely it's okay.
The Degreaser needs EXTENSIVE damage nerf, to the point that it wouldn't be a viable way as a standalone weapon, its only power being combos, AND shorter afterburn duration, so you need to act fast. Maybe even have its afterburn not damage enemies, just light them on fire.
But then I dunno how the Gas Jockey set will behave...
Would moving the bullet vulnerability to it from the set would help?
Ah, thinking up fixed stats for the Degreaser and/or Axetinguisher is really difficult.
Maybe the Degreaser could de-buff crit boosts on the Pyro's other weapons?
This would force those who wish to "sting" to use the other, much more forgiving Flamethrowers.
Can we all just unanimously agree that it's overpowered and that we hate and and move on?
I'm starting to get tired of this thread being only about the Degreaser and Axtinguisher