1. Post #22761
    Gold Member
    benzi2k7's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    I meant cows as they are. The species you refer to may have been natural, but the current equivalent are not. Once we started selectively breeding them, they became artificial.
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  2. Post #22762
    Gold Member
    Darth_GW7's Avatar
    March 2008
    7,680 Posts
    Yes it is! We're part of nature! What we're doing is a different form of natural selection, it's not just one thing. We're just making directional selection work to our benefit, in the case of "if certain wolf has these traits they will survive better because group of humans will take care of them", we didn't just go kidnap a group of wolves and beat them into submission, wolves that were more timid and less scared of humans came to us first.
    Selective breeding is not Natural Selection. Natural selection relies on nature removing any offspring that are unsuitable (They die before they reproduce). Selective breeding relies on us choosing the parents to produce the offspring we desire. That's quite a significant difference.

    Edited:

    Really?
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  3. Post #22763
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    I meant cows as they are. The species you refer to may have been natural, but the current equivalent are not. Once we started selectively breeding them, they became artificial.
    You do know most cows are just left to their own devices most of the time, right? Those large open fiels they're placed in are pretty much their natural envirnment, just closed off so they can't run away. Badgers and shit can still tr to attack them, but they don't because cows can easily fight them off.

    I don't know how much time you've spent around cows but they are certainly NOT defenceless. They usually just don'tgive a shit.
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  4. Post #22764
    Gold Member
    Starship's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,397 Posts
    Anyone want to join me and a friend and try reapers on gold in MP? I can play adept lvl 20, engineer lvl 20 and lvl 20 infiltrator. Friend is all lvl 20.
    Origin name: Partyprime
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  5. Post #22765
    Quite so, ol' chap.
    Dominicus's Avatar
    December 2011
    4,040 Posts
    Why are we talking about cows again?
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  6. Post #22766
    Scar's Avatar
    September 2010
    4,167 Posts
    Why the hell are you guys..

    You know what?

    I should go
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  7. Post #22767
    Eyes like a god damn hawk
    H4wkeye's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,749 Posts
    Why the hell are you guys..

    You know what?

    I should go
    Oh fuck, they are indoctrinated. Run.
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  8. Post #22768
    Gold Member
    Darth_GW7's Avatar
    March 2008
    7,680 Posts
    You do know most cows are just left to their own devices most of the time, right? Those large open fiels they're placed in are pretty much their natural envirnment, just closed off so they can't run away. Badgers and shit can still tr to attack them, but they don't because cows can easily fight them off.

    I don't know how much time you've spent around cows but they are certainly NOT defenceless. They usually just don'tgive a shit.
    Fields are an artifical environment too. They're designed to provide optimum conditions for cows to grow and reproduce in.
    Cows wouldn't stand a chance in the wild.
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  9. Post #22769
    "some of those dragon dildo designs are pretty cool"
    EcksDee's Avatar
    February 2007
    9,013 Posts
    Selective breeding is not Natural Selection. Natural selection relies on nature removing any offspring that are unsuitable (They die before they reproduce). Selective breeding relies on us choosing the parents to produce the offspring we desire. That's quite a significant difference.

    Edited:



    Really?
    Natural selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.
    Human induced selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.

    human induced selection is still natural selection.
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  10. Post #22770
    Gold Member
    Darth_GW7's Avatar
    March 2008
    7,680 Posts
    Why the hell are you guys..

    You know what?

    I should go
    BIOLOGY!
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  11. Post #22771
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    Selective breeding is not Natural Selection. Natural selection relies on nature removing any offspring that are unsuitable (They die before they reproduce). Selective breeding relies on us choosing the parents to produce the offspring we desire. That's quite a significant difference.
    There is a miniscule difference. The difference between natural selection and selective beeding is that more offspring survive with selective breeding and changes become noticable much more quickly. That's it. Totally and completely.
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  12. Post #22772
    Gold Member
    Darth_GW7's Avatar
    March 2008
    7,680 Posts
    Natural selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.
    Human induced selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.

    human induced selection is still natural selection.
    It's not "killing off" the dudes that don't fit best.
    It's ensuring that the ones that don't fit never come into existence by selecting parents to provide the optimum offspring.

    Edited:

    There is a miniscule difference. The difference between natural selection and selective beeding is that more offspring survive with selective breeding and changes become noticable much more quickly. That's it. Totally and completely.
    No. In Natural Selection the "Selection" occurs in the offspring. In Artificial Selection the "Selection" occurs in the parents.
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  13. Post #22773
    "some of those dragon dildo designs are pretty cool"
    EcksDee's Avatar
    February 2007
    9,013 Posts
    It's not "killing off" the dudes that don't fit best.
    It's ensuring that the ones that don't fit never come into existence by selecting parents to provide the optimum offspring.
    Okay.

    The parents best suited to their environments are more likely to reproduce.
    The parents best suited to their environments will reproduce.

    The only difference is timescale. The end result is the same.
    By that I of course don't mean that our cows could have arisen naturally, no. I mean the process is the same, and the result is that the ones best suited to their surroundings will survive.
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  14. Post #22774
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    Fields are an artifical environment too. They're designed to provide optimum conditions for cows to grow and reproduce in.
    Cows wouldn't stand a chance in the wild.
    You do know cows get loose all the time right? The most common death for a loose cow us humans rnning them down or shooting them. Or dehydration. They don't get killed by wild animals all that much unless a pack of coyotes or some shit want to test theirluck.

    Edited:

    No. In Natural Selection the "Selection" occurs in the offspring. In Artificial Selection the "Selection" occurs in the parents.
    If cows evolve in the wild to run faster because the slowest are picked off by predators, and they evolve to run faster in captivity because some bored farmers make them race the outcome is the same. The difference?

    Time.
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  15. Post #22775
    Gold Member
    benzi2k7's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    Selective breeding is not Natural Selection. Natural selection relies on nature removing any offspring that are unsuitable (They die before they reproduce). Selective breeding relies on us choosing the parents to produce the offspring we desire. That's quite a significant difference.

    Edited:



    Really?
    There's no difference in the genetic things that happen when artificial or natural selection happens, Charles Darwin used selective breeding/artificial selection to show the wider process of natural sleection. It's only "artifical" to disginuish between the usual selection and us having an influence, there is no difference underneath it all, it's just a name, nothing special happens, we are using nature to our advantage. If you were talking about us actually altering DNA in a lab or something you'd be correct but we're manipulating the NATURAL ENVIRONMENT to our gains. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE apart from us. It does not make the outcome artificial, there is no genetic difference, if you took a dog and compared it to a dog that just so happened to evolve in the same way because of various enviromental factors there would be no genetic difference between them. Artificial selection is just part of a wider process. The only artificial life we have created is the one I linked earlier and that's according to science not your weird understanding of the word artificial.
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  16. Post #22776
    Eyes like a god damn hawk
    H4wkeye's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,749 Posts
    Cow Effect, new game by BioWare, inspired by Facepunch.
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  17. Post #22777
    Remove anime
    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,645 Posts
    With some minor adaptation to a natural habitat I could imagine them walking the slopes on some mountains and eat grass all day, like many other animals do.
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  18. Post #22778
    "some of those dragon dildo designs are pretty cool"
    EcksDee's Avatar
    February 2007
    9,013 Posts
    Yeah I'm feeling this discussion is so far off the rails it's ended up somewhere on the bottom of a large ocean.

    So guys, that Mass Effect 3 ending sucked right?!?!
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  19. Post #22779
    Gold Member
    benzi2k7's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    I don't even like Mass Effect, I'm just really mad about cows and dogs.

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  20. Post #22780
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    Natural selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.
    Human induced selection kills off the dudes who don't fit best to their environment.

    human induced selection is still natural selection.
    Not quite.

    Humans killing other humans who are for whatever reason unable to defend themselves due to some discrepancy that puts them at a disadvantage would be natural selection if that disadvantage was related genetically.

    Like if there were was a war between two kingdoms, and people with a specific defect (like a poor Achilles tendon or a weak immune system) joined either side, and died in greater number, then yeah that would be natural selection.

    It would be similar to the way certain animals die off when they get into fights or get sick.

    Because of this you can predict the outcome of natural selection, but the change that is made to an overall group is determined by the scenario and environment, and other random factors.

    Induced selection implies that there is a plan in place to achieve a desirable outcome. This is artificial, as in order to get to the end of this path, all the variables were taken into account and either controlled or neutralized.

    This is not the same thing as a bird evolving a different type of beak which is better at cracking open seashells where other blunt beaked birds in the same niche die off.
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  21. Post #22781
    FLUTTERSHY <3 (also hats suck)
    Unib5's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,705 Posts
    Completed a gold...first try. So thrilled right now.
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  22. Post #22782
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    I don't even like Mass Effect, I'm just really mad about cows and dogs.

    Well the thing with Dogs is; they are really just a bunch of pussies. I mean think about it: in order for a dog to be intimidating they need a pack. Cats don't need a pack of cats to be better hunters. They learn to stalk their prey silently and do so without making obnoxiously loud barking noises.
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  23. Post #22783
    Remove anime
    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,645 Posts
    Yeah I'm feeling this discussion is so far off the rails it's ended up somewhere on the bottom of a large ocean.

    So guys, that Mass Effect 3 ending sucked right?!?!
    That's what started this.

    Edited:

    Quickly, everyone hate on multiplayer.
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  24. Post #22784
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    11,005 Posts
    Key word: Unnaturally. Unnatural = Artificial. It's that simple.

    Edited:



    Due to centuries of selective breeding, one could argue this way.
    Same for cows, pigs, sheep etc. I consider these "Artificial" species due to the fact that we've altered their evolutionary course.
    oh my god you are such a fucking moron you have no fucking idea what you are on about

    by synthetic it means fucking synthetic like the fucking geth ffs it means fucking robots that what organic life has made will destroy it!
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  25. Post #22785
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    Well the thing with Dogs is; they are really just a bunch of pussies. I mean think about it: in order for a dog to be intimidating they need a pack. Cats don't need a pack of cats to be better hunters. They learn to stalk their prey silently and do so without making obnoxiously loud barking noises.
    Dogs bark to get the attention of humans. They're doing what they can to mimic our speech. When dogs go hunting they are incredibly quiet.
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  26. Post #22786
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    That's what started this.

    Edited:

    Quickly, everyone hate on multiplayer.
    Well I think Multiplayer is pretty fun. It's hoard mode but I really enjoy the random objectives getting people to run all over the place.

    I think I'm in the same boat with upgrades though. I enjoy the idea of random chance in terms of what weapons you get, but you should be able to pay for weapon upgrades past that like in SP.
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  27. Post #22787
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    That's what started this.

    Edited:

    Quickly, everyone hate on multiplayer.
    Multiplayer was the pleasent surprise in ME3, everyone thought it would uck but it's pretty damn good.

    I would like weapon rates with a greater chance of unlocking a weapon, and a few more maps. Missions would be coold too where you have to advance along rather than holding an area. Other tan that it's great.
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  28. Post #22788
    Eyes like a god damn hawk
    H4wkeye's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,749 Posts
    Does anyone know how to extract an image from a PDF? The ME3 art book has some great images that could be used as wallpapers but I got no idea how to get them. I can right click and it gives me a "copy image" option but that doesn't work it seems.
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  29. Post #22789
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    Dogs bark to get the attention of humans. They're doing what they can to mimic out speech. When dogs go hunting they are incredibly quiet.
    Dogs bark amongst themselves too, and in fact have fewer vocalizations than cats. A Cat's vocalization is actually uniquely adapted to mimic the cry of a child or infant, so they do that better than dogs too.

    Also dogs are fare more clumsy, hence why they are far more successful when in packs. A cat does not need such trivial things.

    But moving on...
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  30. Post #22790
    Eyes like a god damn hawk
    H4wkeye's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,749 Posts
    Dogs are master race. Cats suck ass. I don't like cats.

    Edit: Domestic cats that is. I like lions, pumas and stuff.
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  31. Post #22791
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    Dogs are master race. Cats suck ass. I don't like cats.

    Edit: Domestic cats that is. I like lions, pumas and stuff.
    Alright, framing it in the ending of mass effect 2: a cat would make the jump from the collector ship to the Normandy. A dog would slip off and fall to its death.
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  32. Post #22792
    Gold Member
    benzi2k7's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    Alright, framing it in the ending of mass effect 2: a cat would make the jump from the collector ship to the Normandy. A dog would slip off and fall to its death.


    u wana go, bro?
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  33. Post #22793
    Remove anime
    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,645 Posts
    Dogs are master race. Cats suck ass. I don't like cats.

    Edit: Domestic cats that is. I like lions, pumas and stuff.
    Cats are awesome, my cats sleep in my bed every morning.
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  34. Post #22794
    Scar's Avatar
    September 2010
    4,167 Posts
    Yeah I'm feeling this discussion is so far off the rails it's ended up somewhere on the bottom of a large ocean.

    So guys, that Mass Effect 3 ending sucked right?!?!
    Eh, it's more then the ending if you ask me. The whole game was far from perfect, in my opinion.
    I mean, most sidequests are all boring wither "go there, scan that planet, go back", or "survive for x minutes on this multiplayer map".
    Then, there's fewer dialog choices, through the game, and most of the time you can't chose what to say, only how you say it.
    Most animations and facial expressions also seem pretty bad, even when compared to ME2.

    But yeah, I'm mainly posting to stop these biological debates
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  35. Post #22795
    Eyes like a god damn hawk
    H4wkeye's Avatar
    March 2011
    4,749 Posts
    Cats are awesome, my cats sleep in my bed every morning.
    So does my dog.

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  36. Post #22796
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts


    u wana go, bro?
    Yeah, I will. Once I get back home I'll construct cardboard N7 armor for my cat, and he will kick the crap out of a shrimpy pug dog.

    Edited:

    So does my dog.

    But look how much space he/she takes up. Ridiculous.
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  37. Post #22797
    Remove anime
    jiggu's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,645 Posts
    Yeah how can you sleep with him there? Though he's cute.
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  38. Post #22798
    Gold Member
    Janus Vesta's Avatar
    May 2007
    12,400 Posts
    Dogs bark amongst themselves too, and in fact have fewer vocalizations than cats. A Cat's vocalization is actually uniquely adapted to mimic the cry of a child or infant, so they do that better than dogs too.

    Also dogs are fare more clumsy, hence why they are far more successful when in packs. A cat does not need such trivial things.

    But moving on...
    Let's not get into an arguement about how dogs are far more intelligent and loyal than cats and how cats are very picky and relatively bad at hunting anything other than rats and birds.

    This is the Mass Effect thread after all and talking about how inferior cats are to dogs would just be off topic.
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  39. Post #22799
    Gold Member
    benzi2k7's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,761 Posts
    Yeah, I will. Once I get back home I'll construct cardboard N7 armor for my cat, and he will kick the crap out of a shrimpy pug dog.

    Edited:



    But look how much space he/she takes up. Ridiculous.
    mass effect 4 is set 50,000 years later and you play as Commander German Shepherd, cats in the future are indoctrinated by the reapers btw, that's why they're such assholes
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  40. Post #22800
    Framperton's Avatar
    September 2010
    2,999 Posts
    Let's not get into an arguement about how dogs are far more intelligent and loyal than cats and how cats are very picky and relatively bad at hunting anything other than rats and birds.

    This is the Mass Effect thread after all and talking about how inferior cats are to dogs would just be off topic.
    Yes, they are good at hunting birds at rats/mice rabbits whatever because that's what they eat, why hunt anything else? Also I've seen cats operate various mechanical implements that baffle dogs.

    It's exactly their lack of loyalty that illustrates their intelligence, who wants to be bossed around all the time. But yes, enough about dogs and cats, this is a thread about Mass Effect, and you know what pet Shepard has?

    FISH. Weird Alien fish.
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