1. Post #1
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    Exactly what the title says.
    Example would be that someone is "teleported" from one point to another, which creates a new consciousness that is exactly the same as the previous one. Is that person dead or not?

    In my opinion, it would be yes. The previous consciousness would always differ from the new one in some way.

  2. Post #2
    acidcj's Avatar
    March 2010
    4,000 Posts
    creates a new consciousness that is exactly the same as the previous one
    The previous consciousness would always differ from the new one in some way.
    I'm not following your logic here

  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    lockdown6's Avatar
    August 2008
    5,664 Posts
    I'm not following your logic here
    i think what he's saying is that it's a person identical to the other one, without being the same person

  4. Post #4

    August 2011
    5,969 Posts
    You would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.

  5. Post #5
    ask me for a rust key :~)
    LordCrypto's Avatar
    December 2008
    18,145 Posts
    Yes. You are pushing up daisies, but an exact clone of you is alive. The same argument can be made against teleportation.

  6. Post #6
    acidcj's Avatar
    March 2010
    4,000 Posts
    Unless you believe that the "you" is more than just a physical configuration of atoms in space, then the answer is obviously no, "you" are still "you."

  7. Post #7
    Penis Architect
    paul simon's Avatar
    November 2008
    9,485 Posts
    You would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.
    It's as simple as this, really.


    But now:
    Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is)
    His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter.
    The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone.
    Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone.
    So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist.
    The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation.

    It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think.
    For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.


    But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration.
    It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1.
    I love thinking about this.

  8. Post #8
    Gold Member
    Splarg!'s Avatar
    September 2005
    2,405 Posts
    Wait a minute. Do you mean alive in the sense that:

    1. A copy of your physical self and all your memories and your consciousness are still there, so you effectively are alive and still exist?

    or

    2. Because a copy of your physical self with an exact consciousness exists, you somehow live on having experiences in the new clone as if nothing happened?

    No for the first one I guess, and for the second one, yes, you're dead, but I don't think you even need to use the reasoning you used. I think people want to believe that if your consciousness and physical self were copied to somewhere else, you would start having experiences in that other body, but it's tied to the first "you" only.

    It's as simple as this, really.


    But now:
    Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is)
    His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter.
    The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone.
    Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone.

    So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist.
    The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation.

    It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think.
    For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.


    But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration.
    It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1.
    I love thinking about this.
    Yeah, this helps a lot. The "copying" method of teleporting, if you want to call it that, is really scary to think about. If you can move the actual particles...problem solved.

  9. Post #9
    acidcj's Avatar
    March 2010
    4,000 Posts
    Yeah, this helps a lot. The "copying" method of teleporting, if you want to call it that, is really scary to think about. If you can move the actual particles...problem solved.
    How is copying and destroying any different from moving?

  10. Post #10
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    How is copying and destroying any different from moving?
    Exactly what gets me right here.

  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    Venezuelan's Avatar
    September 2011
    11,636 Posts
    If you die but have an identical twin are you dead?

  12. Post #12
    Gold Member
    Splarg!'s Avatar
    September 2005
    2,405 Posts
    How is copying and destroying any different from moving?
    Outside observation sees no difference, but if you make an exact copy of yourself in a different spot, would you expect to start feeling the skin of your clone, seeing out of its eyes, etc?

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    doommarine23's Avatar
    December 2005
    7,541 Posts
    No, you would be dead. A clone is a clone, it is not your consciousness.

  14. Post #14
    Gold Member
    Supacasey's Avatar
    May 2007
    4,970 Posts
    IMO: You're dead.

    If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?

  15. Post #15
    fredstin22's Avatar
    June 2010
    2,159 Posts


    (User was banned for this post ("This is NOT how you debate / Image macro" - Craptasket))

  16. Post #16
    Gold Member

    December 2009
    1,339 Posts
    I think that everything would be the same as before. Your brain would be in the same condition as it was before the clone.

  17. Post #17
    Altin's Avatar
    January 2011
    337 Posts
    IMO: You're dead.

    If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?
    Exactly this. And the outside view of this can also be expressed with this.

  18. Post #18
    scratch (nl)'s Avatar
    January 2010
    9,520 Posts
    Yes, you are dead, but if no one would find out, then no one thinks you are dead.

    That raises another question, how will people feel when they find out that you are dead, and realize your clone is the one they've been hanging around with?

  19. Post #19
    Bean Shoot's Avatar
    January 2011
    693 Posts
    Consider this. You slowly replace your brain with electronic parts that mimic the functions of your original brain entirely. If only a tiny fraction of your brain was replaced by the electronic part, I don't think you could say that the person is an entirely new being. What happens when those tiny fractions accumulate over time, you continually replace parts of your brain, and eventually the entire brain is made of electronic parts, all while you retain your original consciousness?

    Of course, that technology isn't available to us right now, but I can't think of an answer to this.

  20. Post #20
    Gold Member
    AaRoNg11's Avatar
    May 2005
    564 Posts
    Probably not.. It depends on how "deep" the cloning process goes though. Personally I think conciousness is an emergent phenomena that arises from the quantum configuration such as spin and entanglement of all of the particle in our body. If you were to clone a human simply at a molecular level, these particles would not have the same configuration as the others.

  21. Post #21
    CJF
    PieClock's Avatar
    August 2006
    16,091 Posts
    Think about it this way. If you're standing on the left of the room looking to the right of the room, you see the right of the room. If your clone is standing on the right of the looking to the left of the room it would see the left.

    This means that there would be two conscious, alike minds but with different experiences (seeing a different side of the room). The body that is killed will no longer experience anything else, therefore it's dead. But the other would continue to experience new things, and those experiences would not magically warp to your dead corpse.

    If a clone were ever to exist it would only have the same memories and physical properties of the subject that was cloned, therefore after the clone is born, anything beyond that point wouldn't be attached to you in any way in terms of life or death, and it would be the same the other way around.

    In short, no, you would not be alive.

  22. Post #22
    Gold Member
    Ganerumo's Avatar
    September 2011
    16,541 Posts
    I'm pretty sure you would be dead, except if you can magically transfer your thoughts and character into that other clone.

  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    Tools's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,317 Posts
    Think about it this way. If you're standing on the left of the room looking to the right of the room, you see the right of the room. If your clone is standing on the right of the looking to the left of the room it would see the left.

    This means that there would be two conscious, alike minds but with different experiences (seeing a different side of the room). The body that is killed will no longer experience anything else, therefore it's dead. But the other would continue to experience new things, and those experiences would not magically warp to your dead corpse.

    If a clone were ever to exist it would only have the same memories and physical properties of the subject that was cloned, therefore after the clone is born, anything beyond that point wouldn't be attached to you in any way in terms of life or death, and it would be the same the other way around.

    In short, no, you would not be alive.
    This, pretty much. The nanosecond your clone's done being cloned, it'd be an entirely different person all together.

    There's also tons of religious factors in this matter, like if the clone would survive without a soul, or the soul would be cloned and the universe would colapse etc.

  24. Post #24
    Gold Member
    DMGaina's Avatar
    May 2007
    2,675 Posts
    I had the same thoughts after I watched "The 6th Day" but I'd say no, the clone would be a different person.

  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    kebab52's Avatar
    November 2009
    1,349 Posts
    Say someone (A soldier for example) had an exact copy of their memories and their personality taken a day before they went into a battle, then they were killed in that battle. The mind-copy was implanted into a clone. I don't think that it would really be the same person as they haven't shared the same experiences up until death. So yes, I think you're dead.

  26. Post #26
    I'd buy that for a dollar
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,876 Posts
    Yup, you would be dead. Lets say that you were to break someone down into individual pieces, like atoms. They are dead then. But then you re-assemble their atoms/molecules and you have a new person, just not the original, kind of like recycling.

  27. Post #27
    Altin's Avatar
    January 2011
    337 Posts
    I had the same thoughts after I watched "The 6th Day" but I'd say no, the clone would be a different person.
    The 6th day was an amazing movie

  28. Post #28
    Gold Member
    Cheezy's Avatar
    October 2005
    1,497 Posts
    Exactly what the title says.
    Example would be that someone is "teleported" from one point to another, which creates a new consciousness that is exactly the same as the previous one. Is that person dead or not?

    In my opinion, it would be yes. The previous consciousness would always differ from the new one in some way.
    If the stream of consciousness is broken then the first person would be dead. But you should really rephrase your question, as it is contradictory.

  29. Post #29
    Sirdrone536's Avatar
    December 2010
    2,058 Posts
    I like to think that the orginial would pass into the clone and take controll

  30. Post #30
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    14,793 Posts
    A clone is still only a copy, if you copy a file on your computer and delete the original, it's still a copy and not the original copy.

  31. Post #31
    Gold Member
    Populus89's Avatar
    September 2009
    2,421 Posts
    Nope, you are dead. A clone is a different person who happens to look exactly like you, perhaps have the same memories and thoughts, but it isn't you.

    A simple example: There is a malfunction and the clone is made before you die. Do you share consciousness between two bodies? Nope.

    This is why I hate games/books/movies that use cloning as a way of providing immortality/second chance to it's characters. No one addresses the issue that the original person is actually dead.

  32. Post #32
    fantafuzz's Avatar
    February 2008
    1,782 Posts
    That depends really if consciousness is something not constricted to your own body. Also, there is no way of saying if it is, since if we make a, lets say teleportation device that makes an excact clone of you, with all your memories and everything, and destroy the you that is entering the teleporter, one can't ask the "Teleported" clone if he is the same as the one who entered, as he will always say yes, as he is excactly like the one who entered. However, there is a possibility that the person who entered is dead, and his consciousness is "Gone", but since he is completely the same for any outside observant, everyone else will see it as if it worked perfectly, and the consciousness was transfered.

    Edited:

    However, we don't know enough about consciousness, to say for sure what will happen. For example, when you sleep, you lose your consciousness, and you just wake up. It might be that when you have an excact clone, your consciousness will "Sleep", and it will go to the other "You"

  33. Post #33
    Gold Member
    Instant Mix's Avatar
    October 2006
    3,759 Posts
    Yes. Your conciousness isn't "copied" because you can't control two people at once. From anyone else's perspective , you haven't died. but in your own , you have. you have no control over your duplicate.

  34. Post #34
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    10,842 Posts
    You would be dead. Your clone would not be dead. Other people may or may not know that you are dead.
    The clone is you, they are an exact clone. If other people can not tell the difference then it does not matter if there is a difference or not, so you would not be dead.

    This is what would happen if we made a teleporter, it would clone you in a different place and kill the "original"

    Edited:

    Nope, you are dead. A clone is a different person who happens to look exactly like you, perhaps have the same memories and thoughts, but it isn't you.

    A simple example: There is a malfunction and the clone is made before you die. Do you share consciousness between two bodies? Nope.

    This is why I hate games/books/movies that use cloning as a way of providing immortality/second chance to it's characters. No one addresses the issue that the original person is actually dead.
    Well if they are the same, their brain will be built in the same and have the same pulses of electricity in the same place (when you were cloned anyway). Obviously the actions of other things will affect both of you in a different way but if you were clone just before you were killed/died then the clone would be "you"

  35. Post #35
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    It depends on how you're defining the word "you". You, as the "self", would be dead of course.

    Other people are going to know you by your traits, and if your clone demonstrates the exact same traits that you used to, to them it's like you were never gone, and "you" may live on in a way.

  36. Post #36
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,266 Posts
    :I

  37. Post #37
    Penis Architect
    paul simon's Avatar
    November 2008
    9,485 Posts
    Intriguing argument you've got there

  38. Post #38
    Gold Member
    supersoldier58's Avatar
    August 2009
    2,329 Posts
    Well, 98% of our atoms are replaced each year, I belive our neurons which use energy like any other cell have the atoms replaced. Over years, the large majority is replaced, resulting you in the same end state as the teleport clone.

    Maybe we are a conscious being constantly being slowly replaced, resulting in our atoms changing but our electrical impulses are not.

    So if you teleported, used the same atoms (Which go in the exact same order as before) can create an impulse exactly the same for a few micro-seconds before the brain becomes self aware again. These few seconds are you, so it is you and your brain goes on the constantly changing journey again.
    How ever, if you used different atoms the being creates similar impulses but it goes down to a massivly micro-scopic level that you are different, but still different ofcourse. Atoms are what we are, but can be changed aslong as the electrical impulse can exist while being changed.

    So my theory: Different atoms than 5 years ago, electrical impulse from birth = you.

    Same atoms, electrical impulse dies for a time = same electrical impulse from birth.

    Electrical impulse dies, atoms are changed in the mean time = Not you.

    Electrical impulse is directly copied into atoms exactly ordered as yours, but not the same atoms = Different impulse = not you.
    Electrical impulse directly pulled (Not copied) from you into atoms more or less exactly ordered as yours = you

    Atoms are different in their own special way which means nothing can be exactly the same. So if you teleported with your impulse placed into different atoms instantly, its you, ect...

    So with this confusing and long logic that helped me understand this (Thanks), a new conscious implies its a copied impulse = not your conscious.

    LONG LONG story short, using your scenario, it is NOT you.

    Note: Atoms can never be exactly ordered the same unless using "advanced" teleportation.

    PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SIMPLIFY THIS!

  39. Post #39
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,266 Posts
    Intriguing argument you've got there
    "If you die but have an exact clone are you dead?"

    also an intriguing subject of debate

  40. Post #40
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2007
    4,333 Posts
    The concept is really unsettling to me and I don't really know why. Yes, I think the original "you" would be dead, for reasons stated in the previous posts.