1. Post #161
    Gold Member

    June 2005
    4,438 Posts
    retard.
    Facism is just a strict control of state. That shit about genocide and WW2 was a fucking maniac (Adolf Hitler) being an extremist, and forcing others to think the same way.
    oh sorry i crushed your dreams of a fascist society

    Edited:

    As we as a people become more individual and more independent, Communism becomes less feasible and Capitalism becomes more real.

    As a note, I personally hold a number of Socialist ideals, and I would certainly love to see them implemented. A national healthcare system providing full coverage for all medical work for starters. Nationalization of utilities; electricity, water, and gas. Assistance for all individuals regardless of income in obtaining homes and transportation.
    That last one I should probably explain more. The federal government would pay a certain amount for an individual to purchase a car/home. It would be the same for everyone, a flat rate. Depending on the vehicle/residence, it may pay for most if not all of it, or only a small portion of it. The federal government would not be allowed to have a say in the matter unless there was a justifiable reason. (IE: The individual has a negligent history in which they routinely cause problems.) There would be limits in place on individuals as well to prevent them from abusing the system. For housing for instance, an family would be limited to only receiving assistance every 5 years (that's just an example, not necessarily the actual number) unless there was some form of accident or disaster such as wild fire, tornado, or hurricane. The other exception would be for low-cost housing, such as an apartment, in which case it would be limited to once every year or two years.
    For transportation, a family would be limited in a similar way, but perhaps only once every three years. One exception be based on need, such as if a family needs a second vehicle for some reason. Then of course there would be exceptions for unavoidable accidents. Natural disasters an such of course, but also when a person has a car accident that isn't their fault. If they are to blame for whatever happened, then they would not receive assistance for their next vehicle regardless of when it is purchased.

    I've spent a fair bit of time considering this stuff.

    Edited:

    Ohh, forgot to mention education in that. Assistance with education as well. Of course still have a public educational system, but students would also receive assistance for attending private schools, and the private schools them selves would receive some assistance. As before, the government would not be allowed to have a say in the matter unless there was justifiable reason, such as a student being a delinquent or routinely failing classes. If student routinely failed classes however, they'd be checked for learning disabilities. If they had none, then they simply stop receiving assistance. If they do have a disability, then they will receive full assistance so they can receive proper treatment.
    I'm torn on the issue of parochial schools though. I'm an Atheist myself and would be perfectly happy if they didn't receive assistance, but historically speaking, the courts have ruled that federal assistance for parochial schools and their students is alright as long as the assistance is clearly designated for a secular purpose, such as busing students or purchasing lunches or secular text books.
    Sadly that might wind up like "communism" if you get dosh from the dole to just about anything , half of your time is spent on queuing for food, a frying pan, a car, a house, etc.
    Nationalization might also wind up making everything more inefficient, wasn't it that it took 2.5x natural resources and work to manufacture the same items in communism as it took in capitalism due to nobody giving a shit about making the production competitive?

  2. Post #162
    Gold Member
    Earthen's Avatar
    February 2008
    1,766 Posts
    Every single self-proclaimed communist on this forum seems to forget that the only reason Lenin and the Bolsheviks came to power was the Red Army. The Socialist Revolutionary Party was miles ahead in terms of popular support and votes, yet they lost because the Red Army struck at the opportune moment.

    As for communism, its not going to happen... why do we keep having these discussions.

  3. Post #163
    That_Crazy_Gman's Avatar
    January 2010
    1,320 Posts
    oh sorry i crushed your dreams of a fascist society
    Where the fuck did that come from? I'm just correcting the bullshit you were spouting about hitler, nazism, and facsim going hand in hand.

    now onto more important things, I would like a society like what zeddy said, but the flaw is with deadbeats that live off centerlink, how will the society cover for them? I would just make them perform forced labour. But this idea, plus a technocratic government made up of a council from every path of expertise (not "every" just the main ones), would make my vision of a utopia, with the most skilled and learned leading us, we would enter a golden age of humanity.

    sadly, if that ever happened, the human element of greed would resound in the minds of some, and there would probably be an attempted coup.
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  4. Post #164
    Gold Member

    June 2005
    4,438 Posts
    Where the fuck did that come from? I'm just correcting the bullshit you were spouting about hitler, nazism, and facsim going hand in hand.

    They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[17] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[18] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[19]

    single-party state, suppressing opposition, waging war and violence, isn't that like the definition of fascism?

  5. Post #165
    That_Crazy_Gman's Avatar
    January 2010
    1,320 Posts
    They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[17] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[18] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[19]
    that doesnt mean that the gassing jews thing makes any more sense

  6. Post #166
    Gold Member

    June 2005
    4,438 Posts
    that doesnt mean that the gassing jews thing makes any more sense
    waging war and violence against the enemy - the jews

    or did you think the war meant beating eachother with styrofoam swords

  7. Post #167
    That_Crazy_Gman's Avatar
    January 2010
    1,320 Posts
    waging war and violence against the enemy - the jews

    or did you think the war meant beating eachother with styrofoam swords
    you assume I am immature or a child, how condensending.

    Facism is just the a state of extreme control ruled by one person, encouraging war and violence would be part of said person's regime

  8. Post #168
    Gold Member

    June 2005
    4,438 Posts
    you assume I am immature or a child, how condensending.

    Facism is just the a state of extreme control ruled by one person, encouraging war and violence would be part of said person's regime
    Nationalism and the resulting war-mongering is like the definiton of Facism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    Just read it from there, or do you think you have a better definition of Fascism?

    I think you are mistaking dictatorship to fascism

  9. Post #169
    Gold Member
    Orange-Soda's Avatar
    October 2005
    713 Posts
    Communism doesen't really work, not in todays society anyway.

  10. Post #170
    Shadow Angel's Avatar
    June 2010
    171 Posts
    Just because Lenin said that it isn't true.
    Too bad Karl Marx said that.
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  11. Post #171
    Gold Member
    dumbfox's Avatar
    October 2008
    935 Posts
    Socialism doesn't work.
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  12. Post #172
    I'm different!
    Doctor Zedacon's Avatar
    July 2006
    13,808 Posts
    now onto more important things, I would like a society like what zeddy said, but the flaw is with deadbeats that live off centerlink, how will the society cover for them? I would just make them perform forced labour. But this idea, plus a technocratic government made up of a council from every path of expertise (not "every" just the main ones), would make my vision of a utopia, with the most skilled and learned leading us, we would enter a golden age of humanity.

    sadly, if that ever happened, the human element of greed would resound in the minds of some, and there would probably be an attempted coup.
    The forced labor concept though raises many ethical and human rights issues. Even with prisoners its still an issue. And the problem with that form of government is that someone has to determine who is most suited in each role allowing for easy corruption. As well this turns in to just any other oligarchy of unelected officials ruling.

    Edited:

    It also relies on the idea that everyone will agree which is a complete impossibility. There will be all manner of disputes that simply could not be resolved in that form of society.

  13. Post #173
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    As for communism, its not going to happen... why do we keep having these discussions.
    Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's people like you who act as a counterrevolutionary.

    So much stupid in this thread.
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  14. Post #174
    Gold Member
    Stupideye's Avatar
    October 2006
    12,424 Posts
    Socialism doesn't work.
    Socialism works, Communism 'working' has yet to be proven.
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  15. Post #175
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    I'd rather live in corporate facism where I can freely express my opinions, own shit, do the job I want to do, leave the country freely, etc. rather than a communist facism where I can't do anything of that.
    In a communist society as defined by Marx, there is no state and there are no classes. There would be no one stopping you from doing any of those things in a communist society. Within your corporate western system, you actually have no access to the facets you mentioned.

    Take for example
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

    Take the fact that corporations own the media and that whatever dissenting opinion you might have will be simply drowned out and overtaken by the mass mainstream media -- you should all observe Noam Chomsky on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufac...the_Mass_Media

    In fact, if you knew anything about 'democracy' in the western sense you'd know that it's a total fraud. As long as you are saying something that is within the limits of the political arena that is spoonfed to you, you are fine and will face no consequences. If the dichotomy is: "Iraq war, good or bad" and not "Iraq war, Afghanistan war, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay: Yes or No" then you do not live in a democracy. You live in a theocratic state with a state capitalist government that define your narratives and your views for you and breed them into you. See 'manifest destiny', see 'american exceptionalism'. If that isn't enough, the entire story is pretty much detailed in Edward Bernays' book 'Propaganda' that you can read in full here: http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

    If you are American and/or are incapable of reading, you can look up the BBC documentary about the concept of Propaganda on youtube. The documentary is called 'The Century of the Self'. There is a 24 and a 10 part version on youtube and google videos, respectively.

    As for 'owning shit' and 'doing the job you want to', 'leaving the country freely', it's painfully obvious that you haven't read a single line of Capital or the Manifesto, or any of Marx's work. Private property is not personal property. Seizing the means of production is not the same as 'being forced to do a job'.

    Leaving the country is fine. Ayn Rand did it, remember?
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  16. Post #176
    Gold Member
    Micr0's Avatar
    September 2007
    2,963 Posts
    Socialism doesn't work.
    Yes it does. Socialism isn't communism.

  17. Post #177
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

    wiki posted:
    The Ludlow Massacre refers to the violent deaths of 19 people[1]:42 during an attack by the Colorado National Guard on a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado on April 20, 1914. The deaths occurred after a day-long fight between strikers and the Guard. Two women and eleven children were asphyxiated and burned to death. Three union leaders and two strikers were killed by gunfire, along with one child, one passer-by, and one National Guardsman. In response, the miners armed themselves and attacked dozens of mines, destroying property and engaging in several skirmishes with the Colorado National Guard.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blair_Mountain

    wiki posted:
    The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest open class war in United States history and was the second largest overall armed insurrection next to the American Civil War.[citation needed] For five days in late August and early September 1921, in Logan County, West Virginia, between 10,000 and 15,000 coal miners confronted an army of police and strikebreakers backed by coal operators in an effort to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. Their struggle ended only after approximately one million rounds were fired,[1] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike

    wiki posted:
    The Homestead Strike was an industrial lockout and strike which began on June 30, 1892, culminating in a battle between strikers and private security agents on July 6, 1892. It was one of the most serious disputes in US labor history. The dispute occurred at the Homestead Steel Works in the Pittsburgh-area town of Homestead, Pennsylvania, between the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers (the AA) and the Carnegie Steel Company. The final result was a major defeat for the union, and a setback for efforts to unionize steelworkers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_strike

    wiki posted:
    The Pullman Strike was a nationwide conflict between labor unions and railroads that occurred in the United States in 1894. The conflict began in the town of Pullman, Illinois on May 11 when approximately 3,000 employees of the Pullman Palace Car Company began a wildcat strike in response to recent reductions in wages, bringing traffic west of Chicago to a halt.[1] The American Railway Union, the nation's first industry-wide union, led by Eugene V. Debs, subsequently became embroiled in what The New York Times described as "a struggle between the greatest and most important labor organization and the entire railroad capital" that involved some 250,000 workers in 27 states at its peak.[2]
    President Grover Cleveland ordered federal troops to Chicago to end the strike, causing debate within his own cabinet about whether the President had the constitutional authority to do so. The conflict peaked on July 6, shortly after the troops' arrival in the city, and ended several days later.
    You can look at any of the actions during the 1877 Great Upheaval.

    For your information: these are all american labor strikes, and real american socialism trying to get a better life for american labourers. ALL of them ended with the american government literally using the army/military, the police, bombs, machine guns, and shooting innocent women, children, men. Protestors.

    Democracy.

    Edited:

    Socialism doesn't work.
    Seizing the means of production by the proletariat has been done many times. There's the Paris Commune, there's anarchist Catalonia, there's the former Yugoslavia, there's Evo Morales and Hugo Chavéz today - although the latter have a lot yet left to achieve. As for the other requisite of socialism - direct democracy - this is the highest and most clear form of democracy. Saying that it 'doesn't work' is tantamount to saying that democracy is a sham.

    Only within capitalism is that statement true.

  18. Post #178
    I'm different!
    Doctor Zedacon's Avatar
    July 2006
    13,808 Posts
    In a communist society as defined by Marx, there is no state and there are no classes. There would be no one stopping you from doing any of those things in a communist society. Within your corporate western system, you actually have no access to the facets you mentioned.

    Take for example
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

    Take the fact that corporations own the media and that whatever dissenting opinion you might have will be simply drowned out and overtaken by the mass mainstream media -- you should all observe Noam Chomsky on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufac...the_Mass_Media

    In fact, if you knew anything about 'democracy' in the western sense you'd know that it's a total fraud. As long as you are saying something that is within the limits of the political arena that is spoonfed to you, you are fine and will face no consequences. If the dichotomy is: "Iraq war, good or bad" and not "Iraq war, Afghanistan war, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay: Yes or No" then you do not live in a democracy. You live in a theocratic state with a state capitalist government that define your narratives and your views for you and breed them into you. See 'manifest destiny', see 'american exceptionalism'. If that isn't enough, the entire story is pretty much detailed in Edward Bernays' book 'Propaganda' that you can read in full here: http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

    If you are American and/or are incapable of reading, you can look up the BBC documentary about the concept of Propaganda on youtube. The documentary is called 'The Century of the Self'. There is a 24 and a 10 part version on youtube and google videos, respectively.

    As for 'owning shit' and 'doing the job you want to', 'leaving the country freely', it's painfully obvious that you haven't read a single line of Capital or the Manifesto, or any of Marx's work. Private property is not personal property. Seizing the means of production is not the same as 'being forced to do a job'.

    Leaving the country is fine. Ayn Rand did it, remember?
    A lot of what you said is just as bad as the countless other misconceptions people make about Communism, Socialism, and other countries. To be quite blunt it was more an cynical anti-American rant than anything and rung terrifyingly of Timothy McVeigh.

    Edited:

    You're a militant Communist, aren't you? You're one of the ones that makes rational Socialist and Communist look bad and makes them afraid to speak out for fear of being branded like you. You're an anarchist who is about as educated on the reality of the situation as any second-hand conspiracy theorist. All you're going to achieve is making yourself and Socialism/Communism look worse in the long run.

  19. Post #179
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    A lot of what you said is just as bad as the countless other misconceptions people make about Communism, Socialism, and other countries. To be quite blunt it was more an cynical anti-American rant than anything and rung terrifyingly of Timothy McVeigh.

    Edited:
    They aren't my words, they're the words of Edward Bernays, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky and the BBC.

    If you want to size up the weight of the words, don't look at me. Look at Noam Chomsky, who is only one of the most respected intellectuals in the world today.

  20. Post #180
    Gold Member
    Stupideye's Avatar
    October 2006
    12,424 Posts
    Noam Chomsky is fucking rad. Saw an video of Zack de la Rocha interviewing him.

    Edit:
    Part 1:
    Part 2:

  21. Post #181
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    You're a militant Communist, aren't you? You're one of the ones that makes rational Socialist and Communist look bad and makes them afraid to speak out for fear of being branded like you. You're an anarchist who is about as educated on the reality of the situation as any second-hand conspiracy theorist. All you're going to achieve is making yourself and Socialism/Communism look worse in the long run.
    Once again, they aren't my words. If you're going to resort to what I bolded in the quote, you aren't upholding the 'rationality' you mentioned in which case there's little use for this discussion.

  22. Post #182
    I'm different!
    Doctor Zedacon's Avatar
    July 2006
    13,808 Posts
    Resort to what, the simple reality of the situation? Perhaps you'd rather not admit that reality, but everything you stated very clearly places you in that group. And if you're going to resort to the argument that those aren't you're words, its just even worse. All you become is a parrot, mindlessly repeating sound bites. You look even less educated than before. Repeating what others say doesn't make you look any better or make a stronger point for you. That is the simple reality of the situation and if you refuse to accept that then no, there is no point to this discussion and its a waste of my time to continue it with you.

  23. Post #183
    Extinct's Avatar
    March 2010
    148 Posts
    so much misunderstandings, so little discussion. ARRGH!!

  24. Post #184
    Gold Member
    Karlos's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,858 Posts
    Resort to what, the simple reality of the situation? Perhaps you'd rather not admit that reality, but everything you stated very clearly places you in that group. And if you're going to resort to the argument that those aren't you're words, its just even worse. All you become is a parrot, mindlessly repeating sound bites. You look even less educated than before. Repeating what others say doesn't make you look any better or make a stronger point for you. That is the simple reality of the situation and if you refuse to accept that then no, there is no point to this discussion and its a waste of my time to continue it with you.
    This post is from a person that equated 'militant Communists' to 'Anarchists', being totally unaware of historical works such as 'On the Poverty of Philosophy' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poverty_of_Philosophy) or school schisms like during the Second International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_International) when Anarchists were symbolically and realistically torn away from the Communist mainstream.

    The reality of the situation is that you don't know what you're talking about, a fact that your consistent use of personal attacks only accentuates with each chunk of drivel you post. If 'educated' is what you are, and what your arguments represent, I don't want to take part in this 'education'.
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  25. Post #185
    Gold Member
    Micr0's Avatar
    September 2007
    2,963 Posts
    Yes. The only people who want "communism", are teeneagers with an identity crisis striving to be different and "educated" and those who never managed to grow out of this phase.
    "I disagree with somebody so I'll say that only teenagers believe what he believes."

    I've heard it a million times buddy, come up with an actual argument next time.

  26. Post #186
    Gold Member
    Explosions's Avatar
    September 2010
    5,239 Posts
    I love communism. The only problem is that it doesn't work.

  27. Post #187
    GeneralSanchez's Avatar
    September 2010
    222 Posts
    Just because communism hasn't worked in the past doesn't make it a completely ineffective political theory. Kings of the Middles Ages probably would have said the same of democracy and even capitalism. I agree, it's not right for our time where freedom is put irrationally high on the priority list. It may never be the right time. But the ideal is sound and it would be nice to see a nation actually try and get communism right.