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Post #1
Just stop screwing with the game.
There is no reason to remove this. You can have multiple tool cupboards within your house, there is really no issue here. When demolishing something, make it do it slowly. As a fix, if the players house still has a toolcupboard attached somewhere else, make it so someone else cannot pull it down until they are all gone.
This game seems to be one step forward, two steps back every month.
All this will achieve is push everyone to modded servers with a remove command. How are you meant to expand your house? Start again? I don't think so some how.
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Agreed removing demolishing because 'tards place their cupboards in the obvious spots of the house are to blame.
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ROFL
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What's so funny about it? These are mechanics that don't need to be messed with/removed.
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Agreed this is the stupidest thing ever loads of peeps stuck in their base as well
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its no big deal if your a server admin
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server abuse i see lol
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We're in alpha. All mechanics can be messed with/removed. They've been trying to solve the basic problems here forever, and there's no easy fix. Let them try this out for a while before you throw your tantrum, yeah?
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We already have tried it. Its called legacy
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because giving feedback isn't apart of the alpha process
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Well, I am a fan on the idea to allow putting code locks on cupboards instead :)
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Problem is. Rust is half survival half building simulator. How do you expand your building? How do you stop idiots building on it?
Do we really want these massive pillar bases again? Thats what your going to get
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I find it funny your argument against this is "Hey you can just build a whole mess of "fake" cupboards."
The fact you have had to do this to stop people from tearing down your home in the first place proves it needs to go.
The tool cupboard was all about ownership to prevent people from building on to your house. This has been mitigated. The demolish was just a "nice to have" feature.
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Sure it is -- but being a twit doesn't aid in that process. "Stop screwing with the game," when it's in development, is kind of dumb.
Besides, this isn't the same situation as Legacy. Building is massively different, and it's clear they're going to be doing more work on those systems.
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Read above
Main argument is expanding your house and stopping pillar bases
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Alright, so if we're sticking to the legacy paradigm, you couldn't expand your house in Legacy? I never had any issues. Maybe you lack creativity. And in regards to pillar-bases, is that a significant enough concern when weighted against the abuse of the cupboard system?
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Depends how much you played. I ran some huge servers.
It's not about lacking creativity. When you initially start in rust, you need to get some small base up fast to protect your shit. After that, you want to expand. Now you can't. It's wasted time and resource.
Pillar bases were everywhere, on every server. You get a popular server with these massive bases, you'd have to wipe them as they degraded the server so much.
As server admins, every 5 minutes it was "infused, can you come here and remove something?" All the time. My admins got sick of it, so we went moded and used the remove tools.
It shouldn't have to be this way. Like I said, we've been here, that system is shit.
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Why do you need such a massive house? Once it is built, that is kind of it. Maybe we should plan better?
I think the solution to stopping people from building onto your house is not letting people carry an entire house in their backpack.
I mean honestly a lot of people look at the problems in terms of Legacy and how it was played. Rust is no longer the same game. Once there is a slower progression where regular wood walls will work for a few days before you need stone. Stone works for a few days before you need metal. Metal works for a few months before you need plate armor. It will be so much better.
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Clans, friends.. that's why.
We had 10 people living in our house. That's why it was so fun.
We still got smashed in to with c4 etc. We couldn't always be on 24/7, so it's not like you're invincible.
Progression from legacy to experimental is the same. We've played it through to test. Infact, it's almost identical to how legacy plays apart from visuals and some tools/weapons.
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I for one completely agree with infusednz.
This is simply not the way to go about it. I literally don't have a clue why the devs are making these weird moves with their cupboards and all that stuff. Have they not learned from Legacy at all?
InfusedNZ says it feels like every patch it's one step forward two steps backwards and that's EXACTLY how I feel about it.
No, I don't have the perfect solution, but the system right now feels clunky and works like crap in my opinion.
Honestly I'd be incredibly happy if they'd just use the Legacy building system as foundation, code it right, iterate from there and see where that brings them and how they can improve on it, I think that's a way more logical approach.
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Or just make them crafted with code locks already built in...
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The demolish was the ONLY protection, for awhile, against the 'walk through the wall hack'. (re: rock bases, remove stairs)
I am assuming that by removing it, FP is making a statement that this exploit is resolved because there is no removing stairs now as protection. I had suggested timed building replacements to solve this stair exploit, where you could demolish the stairs but only replace them in the same location after a period of time.
The only other time I used demolish, was to cover for my own stupidity, of which I was grateful of its existence. Like, losing my door key in an outing and not having a spare in the correct location. I could use demolish to take my metal door down and replace it with another door.
One thing I do miss from legacy is the requirement to go through doors and all the creative door mazes that you encountered on a base raid.
Let me add this about the constant change.
I am way kool with it, because I get a new game each week. There is a crazy enjoyment in creating a new strategy each week :)
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That's fine, but we've already had this change.
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I really don't see how any of you can be disagreeing with infusednz here. He's not saying we NEED the cupboard, he's simply saying that by taking it out without putting in another fix, they've essentially sent us back to legacy and their exact reasoning for it was, "Maybe we’ll add further tools in the future to make remodelling easier, but we need to see how this changes gameplay before making those kind of decisions." They should've already known what the gameplay was going to be like, because it's the EXACT situation of legacy/early experimental phases.
Does nobody remember the frustrations of early experimental builds when you could get locked inside your base if someone put a single railing in front of your door? Does everybody seriously want to go back to that? It's not like we can just put a weight on our mouse and watch a show while we free ourselves anymore, now we also have weapon durability too! We can deal with testing things and experimenting with new methods of doing things. But when you just take away your initial fix without putting in some kind of alternate fix, the original problem is still there.
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Thanks for summing up my thoughts in to something coherent. That is why i'm so pissed and made the 1 step forward, two steps back comment. We've already been here with legacy. It didn't work.
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The fix to remove demolish is TWIG...
Now we have to plan CAREFULLY our designs prior to upgrade.
If we upgrade too powerfully beyond our tools, we will be trapped in our monstrosities.
If we screw up, we are screwed. Serves us right.
The raider can raid, just not RAZE our site with little effort.
The cupboard is still there and functioning although with room to improve.
Also, the raider must be practiced as well not easily creating and demolishing their raiding platforms until they get them just right.
We need to just think this out a little differently now, like we always are required to do.
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That's just making excuses. you can remodel your house in the real world. It's not like one day I can't suddenly exit my house. It's just silly.
With our little group, we were constantly remodeling the base we had. Shouldn't have to rebuild every time we want to change something. This is why vanilla legacy was so dead.
edit: shit, garry is in the thread /hides
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Oh sorry I didn't realize the No-Build zone was still in the game. That was my biggest complaint, so as long as that remains I really don't have much issue with this change. It's still inconvenient for the people wanting to make elaborate structures, but twig is easy enough to destroy so it's still possible.
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That's cool, my issue is when the base is a lot bigger. Say you meet some new peeps on the server. "Hey bro, come live with us"
That's when you have problems. If you already have a stone/metal house and need to make it bigger. Or you misplace a wall.
Edited:
Also, if I remember correctly, they want to remove the tool cupboard and protection zone eventually...
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I built some cool bases in Legacy that started off as 1x1's and were expanded into sprawling mazes of odd rooms and dead ends because I couldn't remove stuff.
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Lazy ass fix.
The devs could have easily made a system to control the use of demoing. Saying that there is no real solution is just flat out wrong. The best option would be to only allow the person that placed the Tool Cupboard to use a hammer to demo. Simple fix for a simple issue but no lets just gimp the whole building mechanic and make the game less fun.
Great job guys!
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with c4 there is no safe place to build a house ...every house is now raidable
at least if you could build on a rock or water you could demolish the access to it but now there is no point building a house were peeps can just walk up to the front door and hack it down very very very easily because the doors are really weak or blow it up with c4
the ownership sytem could have been changed to stop raiders demolishing a building unless they used c4 or tools and just used the cupboard to build and let friends build , the building radius could have just been i curtain radius/distance from your building, the same distance been set as cupboard
i have done 1,100 hours in this game and the game may be in alpha testing or not .. but its really really screwed up at the moment in my opinion more than its ever been
if this system is to stay in place then it as to be more like the legacy build
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to use your analogy, you can remodel your house in the real world. but it takes time and effort, depending on the material. a plasterboard house is easily demolished, but easily renovated. a concrete home laced with iron is not easy to renovate, but its also much stronger. irl you cannot just click on it and have the wall do the work for you, you need to plan, and adapt the layout of the home according to how much effort you want to put into renovating it.
it never made sense (imo) to have the ability to delete panels, but i respected it being in as something the devs wanted to try out as a constant game mechanic. it was intended to allow us to remove griefer wall panels. thing is, it's prone to abuse by raiders, lazy and unrealistic in a game that is striving toward entertaining realism. it literally has become a tool that is hidden in a 1x1 stone box after authorization so others cannot use it.
i personally think they should remove the cupboard all together. building onto another players house is a legitimate raiding strategy, and just like in legacy, can be absorbed into the build with a little creativity. they walled in your entrance with stone walls? thank them for the completed room you didn't have to pay for, and go build another layer on the outside of it. knock down one of your walls and stick a doorway in it. i suppose one of the things would be to have an upgrade animation, so griefers might waste some time putting a twig box up, but wont spend resources and time prone to upgrade those panels to metal.
i could see the demolish tool being 2 things. 1st, an admin tool to clean up the server, and resolve issues. 2nd, a time limited option for panels, say within 10 seconds of placement. this would be regardless of who placed it, and via the hammer menu as it is now. otherwise, break down the wall. but either way, they will never come up with a solution for the old problems while there is a bandaid in the way. better to remove it, test what happens, and come up with a long term solution that is more viable than the magic box with its forcefield and disintegrator ray.
(rant over)
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1, keep demolish (fun and usfull )
2, make tool cupboard only usable by peeps with code entered in it (owner friends)
3, only allow peeps who are logged in cupboard access to demolish
problem solved
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There should be a penalty for using destruction tool. Not arguing that at all. Especially for the higher end materials, and it should take some time. It should also have some effect on your base while you do this (not sure what).
The problem with removing the cupboards like I said earlier is you are going to get the pillar bases. The pillar bases existed only because of this issue. You haven't seem them in experimental as there has been no reason to have them. So I don't think removing them has the desired effect.
The other issue as i've said as well as being admins, we were constantly asked to remove building pieces. It got to the point where we just put a script on for players to remove them.
I think the best middle ground is to have a huge penalty to remove materials of your house. A good one is probably that the place cannot be built on/around for x amount of minutes. Also have a resource penalty that it cost xx amount of resources to remove. As it's being removed you cannot craft. I don't know, but i'm sure there is a better way.
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As the dev blog states there's a clear intent and reasoning for this.
But what it does to correcting building errors, it makes C4 mandatory to alter your own house.
Now that tools are nearly useless in the demolishing, C4 value just went up the roof.
Personally i've actually blueprinted 3-4 building types on paper, i've build several houses and learned from each one and put the ideas in a list, and then developed them further and basically drawn blueprints. But even that amount of planning doesn't cover the fact i may want to alter the building if a weakness shows itself or even worse, the people i build with who have cabinet rights build something that's outside the plan. Yeah in Rust you cannot trust people since most randoms are KOS, but from now on i really cannot even trust my irl best friends to build how things are supposed to be built. So really trust no one ever is the key. When you're building a top notch piece of security art Fort Knox, there's no room for players (who play this game "for fun" and entertainment) in the build team.
Building alone is so massively slow at the moment it's worthless, first raiders will be knocking at your door within hours of server launch and to get a somewhat reasonable house up alone takes at least 2 full days currently, 2 manning and upwards the building up is ok. Which brings this to my point above, in order to have the house built by your standards you really can't count to others, just cause as rare as C4 now is one mistake can cost days of labor.
Granted the demolish cupboard was ridiculous since anyone with access could literally tear the building down in minutes, but now we just hit the other extreme end, you cannot modify your building without C4 which might take weeks to get. Just this past week i didn't get either bluepring, explosives or c4 and i literally built a 1 story house and then did nothing else than farm blueprints nearly 8-16 hours a day for a week, previous week i got 3 C4 blueprints. So we really need a solution to this that's somewhere in the middle. Access to tools that won't take an entire house worth of materials to craft to break down one wall (like the amount tools needed now require) and is not so rare that it can take weeks to find it, but while maintaining a reasonable level of hostile demolishing, something that can take down a single wall but not the entire building in a matter of minutes. Maybe the tools system should indicate a tier system in this matter as it somewhat does, but more so. The more expensive top tier tools can take down stone and wooden walls, middle can take down wood slowly and twig, and low tier tools twig and the beginner tools nothing. For metal you'd still need C4 or explosives. Right now who gets to demolish what is all about luck, who gets the C4 blueprints wins, there's no effort reward, just luck.
Right now my guy is locked inside my house on a server that didn't wipe after update, i've masoned my outdoor shut basically, i've got no C4 and no tools to get out or in. This was merely a extra security reason since doors are currently the weak point of the building, during offline time it was mandatory, cause there's no raid protection unless you patrol the grounds with a rifle 24/7. Just upon quitting remove doors and make a wall instead.
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Building awesome stuff was my favorite part of the game but now I have to stress about every little thing my 4 friends place in our base. Now we are just going to be arguing about where to place stuff all the time. Screw that there are other games we can play and not get punished for building and having fun.
I'm done with Rust unless the demo feature comes back in some form.
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Have 10 players? Build 10 houses! Why does it have to be a mega base in the first place?
Again you are thinking in legacy terms. Right now c4 is a placeholder. When they add more restrictions to raiding, it won't be so easy to rip though your entire place. So it won't need to be so large.
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Because big bases are fun...
What this game needs to deal with big bases is siege weapons that cost a ton to make and require big group to operate and protect.
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I think they should leave demolish as it was, if you were not smart enough to build a house to protect your stuff, then that's your fault. People that like the new update are people that can't build and complained about getting raided. If someone came into my house and took my stuff, I would suck it up and build again.
Dumb x 17
Agree x 12
Disagree x 4
Funny x 1
Winner x 1
Optimistic x 1
Artistic x 1
