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Post #1
I see a lot of people saying that rust is not a raiding game, its a survival game....What are we surviving from? bordom? lets be honest. Even at its most difficult, the "survival" aspect of this game is laughable... This game is about bases, KOS, looting..and you guessed it RAIDING. take out those things and all you have is a crappy version of Minecraft.
Side note. If raiding wasn't in the Legacy version... how many copies do you think would have sold? (I know for a fact I wouldn't have bought it, or any of my 8 IRL friends that bought it)
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I think many of us who say this are trying to make the point that the survival aspect should be made significantly more difficult and should be the primary focus of the game. PvP and raiding should exist but they should not be the only real purpose of the game like it is now.
I can't speak for anyone else but I personally would like to see the survival aspects become significantly more difficult and harsh, for gear to be a high-maintenance and low-reward goal, and for combat and raiding to become thing done out of necessity rather than pleasure. Some ways to move in this direction would be...
No Healing: You should only recover health naturally over time and it should take a long time. You should not be able to heal yourself directly in any way.
Health Status: Your health status and your HP need to be different. Your HP is your immediate life force whereas your health status is your general level of well-being. This should be the value that determines how quickly you gain or lose HP over time. Raising and maintaining this should basically be the most important thing in your virtual life.
Environmental and Situational Consequences: The environment and situations you can get in should be far more important. For example, getting wet in the arctic should be REALLY BAD. So bad that if you don't stop and make a fire you will almost certainly die, clothes or not. Everywhere else should be the same and it should change over time. Grasslands might be relatively safe, except during a thunderstorm when you might get killed by lightning. The desert might be terribly hot during the day and very cold at night. This stuff exists and is dangerous in real life. It should be in the game as well.
Death penalty: Dying needs to matter whether you are naked or fully geared. If natural healing and improving health status is difficult and slow enough those two things alone might make death something to take seriously. Who wants to die if it will take a day of work to regain your health status and HP levels? You're not going to dump your gear and go raiding with just a hammer, that's for sure!
Big Picture: There should also be a goal to your survival. I like the idea of the monuments acting together for a greater purpose. Get some codes from an old bunker, retrieve some equipment from the radioactive zones, figure out the 'puzzle' (that could be randomized, etc) and send a signal via the satellite dish for some reason. Another idea they mentioned was a downed nuke that you could arm or disarm to wipe the server. There are lots of monuments and puzzles they could add that would give players a great purpose (save the world, destroy the world, who knows what).
PvP and raiding should be part of the game. They should not be THE game. This should be a survival game that contains aspects of PvP and raiding as part of the need for survival. Right now it is a purely PvP and raiding game without about 5 minutes of superficial/trivial survival.
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agree with brock almost word for word.
also, if everyone raids, there will be no-one to raid. it's damaging to the longevity of the game to prioritize one style of play over another; if there are no players trying to build massive houses, then there will be no massive houses to raid. just shitty little sheds all over the place, with basically no gear in them because why bother. at which point servers will spawn you with the most popular battle gear, and some wooden barricades and this will degenerate into just another CS game.
i have no problem with raiders. if anything, it's realisitic that some people will take the easier path in this kind of situation and rob, steal and kill anyone they meet to survive. the other part of humanity would work together, make a village and some kind of defence, maybe form some kind of government until human nature rips them apart, they kill each other in a paranoid state, and build 2 seperate villages that constantly go to war.
i keep saying it, but this game has more potential than raid, rinse and repeat. i don't care if that is all you do with it, but please don't ask the devs to make it the only thing you can do.
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Exactly! Legacy was/is a raiding game, but Rust is supposed to be so much more than that. I do not think raiding should be eliminated, I enjoy it and it's fun to deter raiders, but the game would be very one dimensional if that's all there was to it.
Oh, and to the OP, since this thread is titled the same as mine I'm assuming it's directed towards me and the others with similar opinions. You should go back and re-read people's comments - no one said pvp and raiding should be removed, only that it's not the ONLY thing the game should be about.
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Well I wish more people would say "I'd like Rust to be a survival-focused game" instead of saying "Rust is a survival game, not a raiding/PvP game". The former is an opinion, and a lot of people would agree. The latter is a statement, and it's empirically and demonstrably wrong.
As for the minutiae, limiting health/healing, adding more environmental hazards and imposing greater death penalties are all part of the "hardcode mode" line of thinking. All interesting and realistic, but with increased difficulty and death penalties comes increased frustration and rage-quitting. If people can't stand to be killed on sight now carrying 20 minutes worth of work, imagine how they'll handle being shot in the head and having to limp around for the next 10 hours. I'm a big fan of introducing more of a survival aspect to the game, but I'm also not expecting Rust to become a multi-player version of The Long Dark. If it was, it would have had a much softer open on Steam, and a fraction of the playerbase.
The "Big Picture" is the problem. Games like Rust aren't about artificial goals or end points... they can't be. "Build the complex beacon to call down the mothership" gets old after a couple of times, especially for groups that will accomplish the task on empty or private servers, and then it's back to raiding and ambushing the other people who are still trying. The payoff can't be with the destination, it has to be with the journey. The fun needs to be derived from the interaction with other players, not from what you obtain as a result of having to work with other players. That seems to me to be the only way to sustain interest and replayability.
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I play rust to raid and wage wars between my clan and others it's what makes rust legacy so good and have great replay-ability otherwise I see no reason and thus no enjoyment to play tbh...
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That could bring about some interesting moments, for example you turn up in a server as a fresh Newman, and seeing all these other players all well set up and secure you decide you want a piece of it yet deprive the others of what they have.
Some players have managed to secure themselves a power base and rule as an elite force. You want to upset the status quo in a major way, and the only way to do this would be to set off the nuclear bomb, wipe the map, reset everything then the race would be on to see who can gain power first.
The problem is those currently in power are in control of the bomb so you would have to some how infiltrate their base, and set off the bomb.
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There are only so many ways to say "The game isn't done yet, we don't have all the features because it's still in fucking alpha." Seriously how hard is this to understand? The truth is, we won't know what the game is going to really feel like until much further down the road, so these kinds of posts are mostly pointless.
On top of that, Rust can lean towards heavy pvp gameplay, while still being about survival, not to mention that pvp isn't always about direct combat.
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I disagree with this point of view. These types of discussions are about game play, which is still being developed just like items, building, and other stuff. If a majority of people support a heavy pvp/raiding style of game play then the development will probably begin to shift in that direction, and likewise if more people support an emphasis on surviving something other than raids it may go that way.
We are play testing and commenting on the current state of the game. To say this is just bitching and whining and we should shut up because Rust is still in Alpha is absolutely ridiculous. For evidence of this just look at the recent changes made in development because of so many complaints about abandoning what made legacy fun. All those people that complained or started discussions about the way experimental was being developed were told to stop complaining because the game is in alpha.
However it appears they were right since those comments changed the development of the game. So I say to you, if you don't want to see people giving input about their experience with playing Rust then don't buy an early access game.
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This is a valid concern and you could very well be right.
However, with the game still being early enough to have regular wipes I think now would be a great time to try some of these changes out. If it turns out to improve the game then they can develop the rest of the systems with this in mind and fine tune everything very well. If it turns out to suck then they can always go back to how things are now and nobody is really going to lose more than a few days of work before the next wipe anyways. Most likely it will be good in some ways and bad in others and the ideas could be improved or replaced over time.
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I'm gunna respond to these points one at a time, and I'm really trying to be friendly here.. no point in pissing people off. So if something comes across offensive, sorry.
I'm not really sure what the point of this block text is.. Pretty much sum up what you said "Some people want the game to be about survival"
while I'll rebuttal: Some people want the game to be about raiding..
No game will ever have PVP done out of a survival "necessity" what you are describing here, is a game where real people and PVP is easier then fighting the NPC's in the game. There will never be a point where you HAVE to raid to get supplies... sure it might be faster, but you'll never HAVE to steal another persons items to survive. It just won't happen.
Dumb idea. Sorry brah, but only a very small percentage of the gaming world wants games where you have to log in, and spend 2hrs huddled around a fire "healing" from a recent wolf attack. Its boring, and people want to play the game and experience it. Not AFK because you are to low of health to do shit.
Kinda like DayZ's system? I have no problem with this..but it doesn't work with your previous statement.
But this isn't real life. (duh) it sounds good in theory.. but once again, who wants to log in..and have to build 3 fires and stand around then for 10-15 minutes while you "warm up" that's boring as fuck.
Once again, if you implement a system where when you die. you take 30 minutes or 45 minutes to "heal" the server/game populations will drop 80%. I dunno, maybe your a kid that has a lot of time, maybe your old and super rich.. I dunno...but I don't have that kind of time, I have 3-4hrs to game a night..and I sure as hell don't want to sit and wait for passive things in a game, like "health" or "warmth"
And I'm sure you want to respond with "well maybe survival games are not for you".. and maybe they are not, but the point is this: Rust doesn't really have an "Identity" yet, and what you say doesn't matter and what I say doesn't matter. That was the point of my original post, we have to judge Rust on what it is right now, and what it has been. And what it has been is a [raiding game].
nothing really to say to this.. at this point you are just reading me off your wishlist.
So to surmise what has happened so far.
I started a thread on what Rust has BEEN and currently IS.
Then you responded with a wishlist of what YOU want.
Then I responded with why your wishlist will NOT happen.
Good now that we are all caught up. :D
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i might see if i can answer a few of these.
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Why is it that people think when you mention "survival" that you don't want any pvp or raiding? You can have both. I want both. It's just that if Rust doesn't go beyond legacy it gets boring. If the game play just constantly defaults to raiding because that's really all there is then it's boring.
When we say survival we mean surviving other players AND environmental hazards.
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Fair enough, but in all honesty I think you completely missed the point of almost everything that I said. I might have explained it poorly so if that is the case I apologize.
That's was the point of all that text. Nobody is asking to remove pvp or raiding or even restrict it in any way. Raiding and pvp are part of the game and always should be. All we want is for the survival aspect of this supposed survival game to be a challenge too. Right now you can completely ignore all the survival elements because they simply don't matter.
Perhaps, but I think there are possibilities. Perhaps somebody builds a house near a good fishing spot and shoots anyone who goes near the water. If that's the only food in the area then a whole lot of players might get stuck in a situation where they either have to raid that house or starve. It could be more simple too. It could just be a house in a place that could threaten you. You might feel that you need to raid it and remove that potential threat to better your chances of survival. That's fine. What's boring though is just thinking "well, I'm bored tonight so let's go raid everyone we can find for no reason other than to raid them."
If you don't want to wait 30 minutes to recover from a wolf attack then pay more attention where you go and don't get attacked by a wolf. If you don't want to have low health after killing a guy for his gear then don't just run up to him guns blazing. Plan your attack and give yourself an advantage so that you can kill him without taking so much damage.
I have not played DayZ so I can't comment directly on that. What I mean though is that your health is separate from your life. For example your character could be very healthy but getting shot a few times is going to kill you anyways. Alternatively you might get poisoned or catch a disease and become very unhealthy from it but survive because you had enough life at the start to get through it.
My argument from before is equally valid here. If you don't want to stop and build a fire then don't get wet in the arctic. Nobody forced you to jump in that lake. You can go around. You can build a bridge. You can stay in the warm areas. You can pay that other guy his toll of 1 chicken to use the bridge that he already built. You could also "raid to survive" and kill him so that you can use his bridge for free. You have plenty of ways to survive this situation. Whether or not you have to stop and build a fire is completely up to you.
I don't have time either and wouldn't be too concerned. Harsh survival and no healing won't prevent anyone from playing. You just have to play smarter and more carefully. Or, if I'm wrong and it sucks, they can always change it back to how it is now. We don't lose anything by trying.
That's why we are talking about this stuff now. Rust doesn't really have a final identity yet. We want to voice our opinions now while there is still time to implement them in a fair and effective way that is most importantly still fun. I think players would adapt and that my suggestions would ultimately make the game more accessible and fun for everybody. I could be wrong and it could be frustrating and boring and completely suck. It's still early alpha though so now is the time to try it and see. If it's bad they can remove it. If it's good they can tweak and improve it even more. We won't know unless we talk about it and try.
In the end this is supposed to be a survival game and there are currently no meaningful survival elements at all. We want pvp and raiding but we also want survival. This is not exclusive to pvp and raiding. We can have all of it and it can all be challenging and fun.
Dumb x 7
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Late x 1
Winner x 5
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