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I disagree with garry about making a 1:1 recreation of legacy, but his decisions did piss off a lot of players who expected playability to be the number 1 priority, and he probably could've avoided a lot of stress and friction.
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Garry sees the problem as it is; the games playability right now is basically zero. What was fun about the legacy rust was the PvP, fighting to establish yourself on a server or raiding the people with the biggest place. Working yourself up to C4 was THE goal, and as it stands there is no such goal right now. The ceiling for this game is to get geared up and go hunt people down, rather than smacking their walls with a hatchet for an hour trying to break in.
The simplicity that was Rust was the stupid and fun PvP. Going to a rad-town wasn't risky because of the radiation, you were likely to be shot or beaten to death with a rock. I'm hoping once they put rad towns in the game we'll be back at something relatively fun, they were the start of the PvP. What the hell did that guy get out of the box? Was it an M4? Chase him down and kill him to find out!
Either way, encouraging people to PvP is the way that I think he needs to go, and I'm sure they know it by now with his response to that post. I don't want to log in to rust, chop down trees and play building simulator, there's hundreds of other crappy games just like that.
TL:DR; I agree with his post, he needs to focus on bringing it back to PvP oriented legacy with rad towns and a static map for the time being until they can implement them in the procedural generated maps. As I understand it, that's what they're working on.
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no point worrying about whether past decisions were "right", just the pros and cons of the decision so you can adjust your future decisions based on what you learn.
in other words, i agree with the change in direction recently to prioritise playabilty by bugfixing and adding legacy content, but i don't think the reboot was the "wrong" decision.
a lot of people got annoyed by new stuff being added instead of the legacy content, which is probably fair. but those people also have to remember they haven't paid nearly enough to demand the direction of a game in development; and should be careful not to destroy communication pathways between a developer who is actually listening to most of our requests, and the rest of us.
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It's just, the final product will one day cast a shadow on legacy so large, it won't even be talked about anymore.
The growing pains in the interim is just the shit that swirls around this forum until it flushes. I hate to think the team is wavering on the direction they're heading, or what route they took to get there. Rust STARTED as a Dayz clone, and look where it settled.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The ONLY enemy of this game is its fucking fans for some reason. Entitlement is what makes them think they have a say in its development, and this team is too gracious to not secretly read everything said about it, and take it to heart.
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my biggest problem with the new rust is the gameplay. i mean.... everybody know what i mean or? There are so many things...beginning from the point that you don't hear the footsteps from other players and ends at the point where a guy killed you with a weapon in his hand aiming to the ground. sometimes you just get oneshotted from a player instant with a fucking Stone Spear and you don't heard the player because of the bugging sound... i can tell you 500 more so badass gameplay shit in the new rust.
that's my problem! that's the reason why i play the old rust
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I'm glad to see that garry at least accept that some stuff through the development, didn't t turn out as fun that was expected.
But im also glad that through it all, he's determined to finish what he started to the end. I like the experimental and legacy, even though legacy is a bit more fun than experimental. I wish him well and also the team to make the experimental as fun.
I hate coding when it came to my video game design class, so i understand what was it like working with shitty codes from the legacy.
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I'm not thrilled with Experimental's pace of development... I think most people can admit that if they're being honest. There's been a lot of time trying to get other peoples' code to fit properly, and probably a couple of wheels have had to be reinvented along the way. I have some genuine concerns about Rust's ability to handle large amounts of content and detail (currently having neither) when it struggles mightily with largely empty space. And I worry about it's future in the market. A year ago, Rust was the only game that did what it did, as well as it did. At the moment there are a number of games building off Unity or other similar bases that seem to have a clearer picture of what they're aiming to deliver and a certain amount of detail already. And I know a lot of people here will be getting busy, at least for a while, around the 15th of next month. But in theory at least, Garry has invested in a codebase that can handle large amounts of expansion and development where others will (like Legacy) be limited and static.
Despite my occasional frustration with the game, I don't want to see FP waste time working on fill-in rad-towns and airdrops and roads for people who can't find their way around a map using the sun and the landscape like hominids have been doing since the days when we spoke in grunts and hoots. I loved Legacy, but after hundreds upon hundreds of hours everything has been done. If you wanted to play Legacy, you would play Legacy... and at the moment, at least, you'd do so with tighter mechanics and triple the FPS. "Playable" is just a relative term... there'll always be something missing that makes the game unplayable until it's "done".
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He's gone the right direction just needs more time. A 1:1 game is fine and maybe should have been done first but the direction is good and hope he sees his vision through. Maybe he should have made a clone and then built upon that. Who knows. Either way in the end itll be a good product.
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26th December 2014 Last edited by mrknifey; 26th December 2014 at 10:39AM. (spelling errors)
Post #10
@murdo: yeah, i think most people would agree with that, and it's kind of what i understand garry as meaning. the game has taken longer to develop because they focused on new stuff over playability, and they seem to have figured that out now. most of the last few weeks have been bugfixes and improving fps, and i think we will see more focus on keeping it playable from now on.
as for losing players to the competitors, i doubt it really would be a problem. if i buy the game, play it for an hour then go play their competitors game for the rest of my life, it really makes no difference; i have given them my money, and they take no loss. also, most of the time people will own multiples of the same genre that do slightly different things. i have Killing Floor, tf2, CS; all fps, and i play each when i'm in the right mood;)
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PvP is not just a KoS Team Deathmatch.
Most of the players I see stuck with legacy are frankly the assholes that I was glad to see gone. Garry should be thinking of the future audience for when its done. Not people who already bought the game who didnt understand EA and alpha. Are we going to know end up with a stripped down Legacy in new clothing? That gameplay was broke, once c4 and explosives could be made on a server it was pretty much endgame. All you could do is raid one another for the same shit you already had. Its not like one group or another specialized in anything.
Still say Frankieonpcin1080p had the right criticism about Survival. Rust would be taking a giant step backwards going to 1:1 Legacy.
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Hard to agree with that. Do u think the devs would rather have someone play for an hour then come to the conclusion that this game sucks and never play it again like i did with 7 days to die. Or do they want someone who ends up spending 2200 hours on the game and gets probably gets 30 other people to buy the game because legacy was the most fun game ive ever played. Pretty huge difference for them. They also most likely take pride in the game and want everyone to enjoy it.
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Versus the 120+ that wouldn't have come because Rust gets the title KoS. Don't say it wouldnt happen. It has, its probably the number one question asked about another Survival game I play from potential buyers... "Is it another KOS like Rust"?
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This game is always gunna be kos unless its changed drastically, so i dont really see your point.
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Why would it not be KoS? It's a survival game, people fight to stay alive and fight for resources... I think that's part of the game, is it not?
Sure, there are people who are genuinely nice and want to form an alliance, and that's always fun to find people like that. Hell, that's how I met some of the people I used to play with. I had no idea what I was doing and they helped me out, but then we all got shot by random people running around with M4's. Yeah, it sucked, but what did it do? I wanted to get revenge on those bastards who killed me and my friends. That is what made it so much fun.
In any game you play it's going to be KoS, I don't know how you would possibly avoid it in a PvP environment.
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Considering legacy was only 10% of the devs' vision, count on drastic changes in the future. The game's in alpha, and this means it's only just getting started.
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KoS is a playstyle in PVP. It is not the same as being what PVP is. A survival game suffers when its the most readily available (read: easy) thing to do.
Watch the video in this thread. Frankie has alot of experience in these. He is right as well, KoS while fun, isn't as much as the psychological thriller of deciding who you can/cannot trust. If you just make a survival a KoS situation, it looses so much more of the emergent gameplay the developers want.
(This goes for Dill as well)
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The devs have not mentioned anything that would reduce kos so his assumption that experimental isnt kos has nothing backing it. Also i clearly left the possability that it could change, but Thank you for reminding me for the 100th time that the game is in alpha eli. Im not sure where this forum would be without you.
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Just because you don't read what the devs are planning doesn't mean they aren't going to do anything.
Considering your account's 10 days old I wonder if you've been here before.
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I read everything the devs put out for the public. Not everything the devs type is "this is alpha". Its ironic your talking about what the devs are doing when 75% of your posts have nothing to do with the games content.
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i'm not saying that the devs would prefer throw-away purchases, i'm saying that people who do, or who purchase other games in the same genre, will not kill the game (as murdo suggested). that people can play multiple games, and come back to games they haven't played for years because they have purchased the game indefinately.
as for the devs attitude, it's obvious they have pride in the game; the entire reason they decided to rewrite the whole thing was to give a better end product. it would have been much easier to bugfix legacy, and dump the game; instead they have fought upstream to make something that in the end will match their vision more accurately, and not be patched together with unity assets.
admittedly, getting that feeling too. care to share, dill? ;)
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Bellyring, is that you?
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Many of these issues would be resolved if they would focus on some of the important things for now that would make most people happy and to set aside some of the "none essentials".
One major issue that needs to be resolved quickly, especially if we want that survival feel again, is to make it so that it's hard to survive in Rust. If it's harder to survive, people will much likely try and work together to make it and thus, would resolve the frequent free KOS killing, even if it's part of the game. Adding the rad animals, adding random traps, adding the rad towns, fixing the drops, the cold killing you especially at nights if you are not warm or dressed, Bees, etc, all of these would add back to the experience.
Making sure the ambient sounds are fixed... a definite must! The sound is part of the experience. Then, fixing all the gun sounds, footsteps, and all that jazz.
Fixing the animations, fixing the pacing, being able to climb the mountains a bit easier like before, the old rust had a better feel. The rock also seems like it blocks most of the screen.. compared to before.
The map... so many opinions on this. As a level artist myself, my suggestion would be to stick with hand made maps... even if I do enjoy some randomness. Maybe the towns could be placed randomly... and buildings... and traps...etc... but randomly generated maps makes it so that we lose to many of the small details that would make rust so much better. And since you guys are busy with developing the game, this would give the community a chance to show it's skills and you could do like valve... pick some of the man made maps for your game. This way... some of the details such as hiding spots, rivers, bridges... etc would add so much more to the game. I still can't see how some of these details will be added in a random generated map... like a waterfall...
As for raiding... this is just completely broken right now and has no purpose. The research kit will help once they are back.. a good reason to raid for missing important items. C4 was also a great part in old rust for this.
Add the essentials back to rust, make it feel like a real survivor game again, and the community will just flow back in. Put aside the fishing rods... and some of the new cools things that can be done later, and focus on the main "survival" stuff and map feel.
My 2 cents. Hopefully no one will start getting angry, as I tried to stay very neutral in this post. Just thought I would give a bit of advice after being in the industry for a long time. With 240 + hours in Rust... I can't wait to get another 200 in the new version. We keep checking every week ... we play... and lose interest fast because it's still lacking some of the puzzle pieces. Don't get me wrong, the game is going in a good direction, but the focus needs to be changed for a few weeks.
Thanks for reading.
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You spend quite a bit of time digging into each account that you don't agree with huh?
The problem with this game, is the dev's can't seem to find a direction, stick with it and improve that direction. First we had walls, with lvl's then we had walls with simple wood or stone, now we have walls with a super amount of regen.
Saying over and over again, "Well it's Alpha" is really annoying. Either you know what the end product/vision is going to be or you don't.
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sudo, the problem is people keep acting like it isn't alpha. there is a difference between constructive feedback (including specifics like "i hate the locks") and generic, entitled crap like "fix your shit gerry".
as for direction, i personally think they have been too busy trying to wow/placate us with new things to show why they restarted the game. now (given the change in tone of the last few devblogs) i believe they are a) working on playability and b) not going to waste time trying to make everybody happy, and spend every devblog explaining why they haven't "kept up with our expectations".
fuck that shit. this is their game, we paid $20 to see the progress, play in the alpha playground, and keep the game at the end. we didn't pay enough for them to feel like they have to explain themselves every damn week.
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Don't forget that elix also votes any post he disagrees with as late to discredit it - like he just did to Eric's post.
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I've been thinking about this a lot, mostly each friday that I read another devblog or when I hop on trello to see the last posts were weeks ago, that leaves me underwhelmed. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work Garry and his team are doing, but the new rust is just not appealing at all to me. I just wish Gary had released legacy rust on steam as the full version of "Rust", fixed up ANYTHING he could, and called it a day. Meanwhile development on "Rust 2" starts and that is what we have now. Looking at the rust twitch channel, it's pretty much dead. Rust used to be on the first page and now you have to search for it.
All in all, removing zombies was a half baked idea that snowballed into a shit turd snow bowlder the size of texas. I don't really care at this point. I cared enough to write this, but that's where it ends. I hope you can prove me and everyone else wrong Garry and make a awesome game, but I just don't see it happening now.. Your paddling up shit creek with only one shit paddle and the shit rapids are picking up.
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I don't think she does, most of the posts elixwhitetail rates as "late" are because they are late, most of these posts have been on here a multitude of times in one form or another, the newer members have not read through the 100's of hate posts that have no research or foundation to back up said arguments. "same old shit different day".
I would prefer Garry remaking rust 10 times to produce an amazing game. Than sticking with a broke, half-arsed, mediocre game that is difficult to improve or add new features to.
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As much as people rate late, as you say, many of the people actually don't ready everywhere, and since many tend to enter "flame posts" which I like to call them, sort of like this one, then I knew many more would read it ;) . I do not care if some of the things had been said 4 billion times, it needed to be said again and stand by it :) .
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Agree totally.
However, the reboot is better for the most part. It's lost a bit of the legacy feel... which is a bit sad... but thank god the building system was changed to the old version.
I think for the most part the reboot needs to be like the original. Sometimes you can forget what made the original game so popular...
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let's be honest..
just add the ability to raid, random towns , loot boxes, airdrops ( that work )
people will be happy
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The only people that will be happy will be the die-hard legacy players.
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just delete legacy when experimental is ready and finally These discussions are over
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you monster...just delete legacy when experimental is ready
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your just complaining about stuff that isnt in the game yet and or is a bug in a alpha state game lol
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I would rather have a fun, well built game, than the half assed games we typically get.
Why the hell should an alpha stage game be first on twitch? That whole thing just goes to show you how impatient people are that they're already trying to build a following in a game that's nowhere near complete. I hated the zombies in legacy, it was just latching on to the already established titles in the survival genre. Granted, red animals weren't much better, but they were just placeholder.
I think garry's biggest mistake was listening to the forums so much. Some forum threads have changed the game direction for the better, but the majority are made by people who are entirely too impatient to be testing an alpha game. He needs to pick a development strategy, and stick with it no matter what the kids want to say.
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So much this. Half of the fucking posts on this forum are people doing this.. Have people forgotten it's in alpha and far far behind the state of development Legacy has been in?
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KOS sucks but realistically if you are potential threat you are fair game tbh, what id like to see Rust do differently is allow other players to visually see what weapons other players are carrying on them then let them make the choice to either cold bloodily murder them regardless or be a nice guy and let them live, as legacy and all the rest of these games stand right now players are forced into KOSing just to be on the safe side the other player doesn't magically pull a m4 out their arse.
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@ 600 hrs of legacy & i don't know maybe 100 screwing around on the new version while they develop it, I for one have got my $20 worth.
Just play destiny while you wait for rust. lol
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DayZ has that and I don't think its helped KoS any in it? Of course you cant do a before or after as its always had this. Players aren't forced into KoS, they choose it as its the easiest gameplay method.
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