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Post #1In experimental, it seems that either it is a sintch to break into a house, or it is impossible. As i can break through a wooden house in a matter of minutes, after a few upgrades it becomes near impossible to do anything. The whole cupboard system seems to break the game for me, but I can kinda live with it. I though it was a better system to grow your resources, ban together, collect an airdrop, research that fine shit, and then amass a small resevuar of C4 to carefully bring to an enemies house, and then proceed to raid.
Now, its not so eventful. Its no longer a big deal to raid, as I can get a salvaged hammer and break into a house easy. The cupboard system makes things less stratygic, as you can no longer build up to houses. Plus, I feel upgrading and building houses altogether has gotten too easy, I kinda miss the challange that was building a house. But thats just me.
I could live with the system going back to the way it was, I don't think it was that bad: use 2-4 C4 to break in, take some stuff, fight your way out. Now, its all diff.
Anyone have any opinion on this? I know its a common discussion, but duh, building and raiding are what this game is centered around.
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Player slowing volatile powder kegs on your back. Most people seem to like it and Garry pretty much has it on his list on the trello.
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C4 raiding was the best it involved team work gathering materials and risk for reward tracking that c4 out to their base with the chance of losing everything you worked for so much adrenaline.
much better than smacking at a wall for it to break down that is boring i want to blow shit up even blowing the pillars and watching their base tumble down that would be sick.
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Apparently c4 will make a come back but it won't be for a longggggggggggg time. Get used to smacking as shitty and as boring as it is.
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Yeah...legacy holds a special place in all of our hearts. Hopefully the current version will eventually mold to become the enjoyment I once had with rust. (Still play legacy from time to time but the hack infestation kind of ruins it)
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C4 was shit. It made thing easier, and the people who are rich would become more rich by raiding, then make more c4, and blah.
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WE NEED C4 !
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Only after metal walls imo. You can raid without now so there is no need.
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I dont see how it made it easier when i can in the new experimental spawn and instantly start destroying someones base and working my way into it. were as c4 took a lot more preperation.
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C4 made things easier ? You had to get an air drop when everybody wanted it and you had to get explosives + farm blueprints.
Now it's just boring you just have to get a hammer, put a weight on your mouse click and afk for 3 hours if the house is fully upgraded. This is not funny anymore, C4 was the best because it made hell a lot of noise so people would come to get the loot, the fear when you were in the house hearing the tick noise etc...
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No offence but if you need C4 to make the game more interesting then you're playing the game wrong.
For example I had my best raiding experience the other day in Experimental Rust, i ended up with the biggest haul i have ever collected, and it was all done with a lot of psychological manipulation(deliberately make enemies, trolling them, pretending emotional outrage at their raid and destruction of my River Front Home, swearing vengeance and revenge), and tactical warfare but most of all without C4.
You see these raiders had been destroying everyone's buildings and looting. I had built mine on top of a rock cliff face over looking a river which had several homes built on the water. It was great view. These raiders came along and destroyed my house before i had a chance to upgrade it to stone.
Two players in my group died in the attack and ended up spawning else where when their sleeping bags were destroyed, but i had another hidden close by outside, so when i spawned i ran back into my house to kill them, or at least try, a guy with a rock doesn't have much chance against people with rifles and armor, but it was Victory or Valhalla! He who runs dies tired!.
After i had died several times in battle, my spawning started to bug, instead of spawning at my sleeping bag i started spawning right where i had died!, So they decided to retreat, they had got all our loot and destroyed nearly all our building, when they ran off i followed them, they knew i was following too, their mistake here was they let me follow them, they should have killed me there and then. But they were stupid. So i eventually found where they lived, they tried to shoot me from the safety of their house but i managed to escape unharmed. After all i found what i wanted, their buildings location, that was what i was after. Satisfied i knew where they lived, we exchanged unpleasant words in an ungentlemanly manner, but secretly i was happy, i now had a purpose, and an enemy to destroy! things were looking up!
So we(3 of us) chose a tactical retreat, swearing revenge and all sorts of fake emotionally outraged crap. We met up at a location and built further away to give us time to get back what we lost. This time i built for security purposes, a 2x4 for 3 people. i covered the entire thing in solid blocks at least 6 blocks thick and a double door airlock type entry system. Eventually about 2 hrs later they found us...again, but this time we were ready, they spent half an hour hacking through the blocks to try and get in at times they would start on one block then move to another, it seemed as if getting through one blocked confused them or something, maybe they thought they would see the ceiling after destroying one block, a couple of times they made it to the ceiling but i would hammer it to repair.
Eventually they gave up much to our delight in which we trolled the fuck outta them then, teased them, laughed at them A LOT! :) it was epic, when we declared victory they tried to claim there was no victory, but as we said they failed in their raid, we successfully defended our home, our loot, and our lives while under siege, it was clearly a victory, so they took off, but i knew they were waiting us out its what i would do. I've stayed awake playing Rust for two days so i could stay awake as long as i needed to.
We decided that one of us would go outside and see if they were there, one of my friends went out and had a look around but it appeared safe, so i stripped down to nothing but a stone spear, wood, hammer and a building plan and went out to repair the blocks, for the next ten minutes i repaired and expanded.
I was coming back from harvesting wood when three of them attacked and killed me, they were back!. We were under again siege for another half hour or so. I think we spent some of that time making bullets, and taunting them which was the best part. Again they gave up, there was no way in, its impossible they said, again we declared victory and trolled, bullied, insulted, but most of all LAUGHED at them. It was great and definitely made the loss of my previous home feel like a small thing.
What we didn't notice was the time, we had been under siege for about 3 or more hours. One of our group decided to go to bed, it was 4 am in the morning, so that left the two of us, we also noticed those that those who had raided us were also gone, except one, whom we weren't sure if they were part of the group, because he had been quiet the whole time, only two of the raiders had done all the talking, we also thought that they were trying to trick us into thinking they had left the game, and left behind the quiet guy to report our absence through steam chat. We even looked up their names in Steam Add Friends search function to see if they were still online. They were. So we waited a little longer but they never returned.
We decided to go out and get some resources as a test to see if anything happened. When that mission was done without incident my friend decided he was gonna go pay a visit to our old home and see if it was safe to return, i decided would wait behind to guard the home. He made it to our old place safely no incident, and decided to rebuild our River Front Home. 30 minutes later he had fully rebuilt the place and upgraded most of it to stone, the raiders never returned, i figured it was safe to leave the base, and went to help my friend, i also brought as much as our stuff as i could carry.
When i made it back to my River Front Home, i set about organizing some storage, more security, and added some extras to the home. Once that was done we decided it was finally time to quench our thirst for revenge and raid their place which was situated across the river. You could see their place from ours. We stripped down to the bare essentials to leave room for loot and set out towards their building.
I think it took us about 30 minutes to finally break through a couple of stone walls, find their cupboard and get authorization. Breaking stone walls is boring but duct tape on the mouse button is a good trick. :) Finally we broke in!
Of all the raids I've ever done i have never found so much loot, clearly this was the results of their constant raiding of other players, We laughed like Vikings on a raid! LOOT!! Just without the burning things down and rape.
We also found their sleeping bodies, screenshots were taken, bodies gleefully hacked to bits and their skulls collected. It was good.
When we had finally stuffed ourselves full of loot we destroyed the boxes then set about destroying their entire home, after that there was nothing left but floating lanterns, furnaces, and cupboards.
A reminder that a tyrant had lived and was destroyed by those whom had risen up to destroy the tyrants rule.
We had successfully gotten our revenge against those who had wronged us and many others. We scored a shit load of loot and made our Norse Ancestors proud.
The Norse Gods had blessed us with Victory! we would not see Valhalla then.
It was extremely satisfying, so this is proof that you CAN have fun in Experimental Rust, it really is like Face Punch intended the game to be, that we decide how to play and how to have fun. We did have fun, it was great, and the game isn't even finished yet.
So if your not having fun then you're playing the game wrong.
Most people seem to think the game is about the physical aspects, raiding, loot, pvp etc but that's only half the battle, the real battle begins with Psychological Warfare, this is where the real fun begins. Look up Psychological Warfare and it tells you that "It is used to induce confessions or reinforce attitudes and behaviors favorable to the originator's objectives, and are sometimes combined with black operations or false flag tactics. Target audiences can be governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.".
So don't just concentrate on the loot or raiding etc there is some work here that still needs to be done, the game is obviously not finished yet, its got a bit to go but that doesn't mean you cant have fun, its really about how you use your imagination, If i hand you a stick and all you choose to see is a stick but if i hand it to a child who chooses to see a sword or a magic wand, who then is having more fun?
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can you make a TL;DR please ?
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seriously? wtf is wrong with people these days that they cant read a bunch of paragraphs its not like I wrote a fucking book.
raiders attacked
we tactically retreated
rebuilt our loss
they attacked again
we won
they attacked again
we won
they gave up
we attacked their home
we won
lots of loot
we won
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I read the first sentence then didn't bother finishing. I'll assume you like the new system, and thats fine. Just understand that I liked it better when our bases weren't vulnerable to every player. I can knock any house down with a weapon that costs 100 wood. I just thought it was more of a teamwork thing to use C4. Its just the fact that we are all used to Legacy, and that is wat we are all comfortable with. No need to flip out.
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so you only like the new system when you win? becuase you win? What about when you lose?
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In case you didn't notice, they lost in the beginning. Therein lies the issue. I read the entire story, it was humorous, vicious and fun, what Rust is meant to be.
Unfortunately, so many out there cannot read a few paragraphs, much less farm a bit, or patiently raid a base. You want it easily, which is not what Rust is about. It is survival, and one must WORK at it, put in a bit of effort mentally, and be patient.
This isn't a 12 year old's run and gun game, it is, in a way, a battle of wits to survive and protect your resources.
If you need explosive action and conflict rather than raiding to survive, go play COD or the like.
GrymThor, you have it exactly in the story. I hope they pick it up and include it in one of the community updates. What server are you on?
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It's not about the explosion it is about what preparation it took to obtain the c4 and the carefully worked out plan that you use to get to their loot with the idea of maximizing profits, worth raiding or not raiding ect. which intern actually believe it or not offered some kind of defense for those who were new to the server or what not with the new version nothing is holding be back from pillaging everything and everyone I see which is why we need this "resource sink" if you will and c4 just so happens to fit the bill perfectly .
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See, the game is not about raiding in this version. It is survival. Raids should be defense or necessity, not the focus of the game. The focus is survival.
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Well if its about "survival" I'm sorry but I'd rather play RUST what rust is meant to be and what it use to be. Not sure if you have played the new experimental but without the interaction with other players it is ridiculously easy to survive.
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Now I know what you mean when you talk about the preparation and profit maximizing with c4. I don't think people should be hating on these aspects. What is your opinion on the more dangerous, risky alternative of volatile powder kegs on ones back that cause movemnt slowing and can be set off by a stray gunshot or torch?
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I am all for the powder keg idea. As for it being what Rust once was, if you have read the dev blogs and community updates, Rust is never going to be what legacy was. He envisions communities and factions, that war with each other for survival and protection, not just run around randomly raiding to acquire was is easily farmed in minutes, or actively seeking out spawns to kill.
C4 was easy in legacy, period. Powder kegs from what I understand will be damned hard to make, hard to transport, and dangerous to use.
This version of Rust is not COD, and never will be.
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If nobody runs around raiding and looting, then there's nothing to survive or defend... thus no reason for wars. Garry envisioned those same things for Legacy, and they existed... however briefly... on certain servers. But the game provides only so many general gameplay options. In the end it boils down to A) build/defend, B) free-roam combat, or C) raid (with harvesting feeding any of the three). When and why someone thinks they should or shouldn't engage in any of these activities doesn't change what the activities are. And I haven't heard about any major new systems being thrown into the mix.
The best thing about explosives was that it had a tactical element: there was a quantifiable cost in resources to blowing down a wall or a door. Builders tried to anticipate raiding strategies, to maximize attrition. Raiders tried to guess the build strategy, to break the base before resources ran out or the cost exceeded the expected reward. Maybe the cost in time of standing and chopping is a reasonable alternative, maybe not.
Whatever the raiding system becomes, when the building code is done and that magical f'ing Cupboard to Narnia gets removed, I can only hope "tactical" is the ultimate goal... whether it's a combination of different weapon to material to structural location combinations, or a combination of that and explosives and fire... or maybe even the possibility of losing all the loot if you accidentally knock down the house while raiding it.
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Murdo: Very well said. Thank you for that reply.
If another faction begins building on your land, using your resources, you protect them. That's what I mean by raiding for defense and protection.
The issue is the EASE with which bases can be breached. There is NO cost involved in breaching a base. There are also no items of real value in the game, and it is far too easy to survive. Also, limited mentalities must have a win/lose situation in order to keep their attention. The only creativity these vacant individuals exhibit is thinking through how to get into a base.
1: Bases should be DAMN hard to breach. They cannot be breached with an axe or any tool. Explosives need to weaken the material before it can be hacked through. This forces players to work hard to be able to get into them, instead of spawning with a rock and trying to knock down the nearest door.
2: C4, if it returns to the game, should be exceedingly rare, and not a crafted item. It should take many man hours to find. This accomplishes two things, giving a reason to raid and something of actual value to look for, and limiting over use so that only people who work for it can get it. I love the powder keg idea for that reason. It will require work and time (possibly a Rust Day) to build, and it will require a team to transport to it's destination. It may even injure or kill some of that team, or it may fizzle.
3: Spawn AWAY from players and buildings, randomly, so trolls aren't building close to the known sites just to kill for fun. Make it so the player MUST farm and collect before stealing, raiding or killing. Again, this forces a player to work for something before just running around killing freely like a drooling moron.
4: Stealing from a base that has no one there or has sleepers is not raiding, but it is a viable strategy. Leave evidence at the scene pointing to whoever stole your goods and resources while you were out, so you can try to get your things back.
5: Place items of value in game. Things that cannot be crafted. Things that are extremely rare and hard to find, and may cost you your life to acquire. I would place advanced weaponry in that category such as a Tommy Gun or C4, blueprints, or other items from the "world before". Underwater ruins, dig sites that need to be protected by your team while you search for the item. Again, forcing a player to work to get things, placing value on them. Mind you we are not only protecting from other factions, but from the environment as well, animals, weather and so forth.
6: Anything that can be initially crafted should be primitive in nature but if used correctly, effective. Spears, Bow & Arrow, clubs with or without stone spikes, stone axes, pipe weapons made from salvage items that can be just picked up, flintlocks like the Eoka. Leather, wood, bone and cloth materials need to be farmed to create them.
7: Acquire stone from ANY stone, but metal and sulfur ore should be precious, again, giving a reason to loot and making the player work to get them. This hopefully gets rid of the vacant "I am a tough raider killer cool guy" trolls who just don't get it. There was even talk of mines. I like that idea A LOT since the site would need to be protected by a team.
8: A way to identify those who grief a home with no other purpose than to cause...well...grief. Otherwise known as a troll. Maybe an admin tool that identifies who built an item? That way the people on the server could handle the situation and continue to pillage and kill in peace. :)
Optional: There was discussion of a "doomsday" device, that once triggered would count down, then explode, restarting and wiping the server. This is good in many ways, especially giving a win or lose situation, giving a goal, and providing for the issue that plagued legacy, a group or groups becoming so entrenched that new players had no chance. That rush of a fresh wipe, frantically racing to get the best building site nearest the resources you need. One faction would fight to keep it from being triggered, the others fighting to trigger it, then the battle during the countdown. I absolutely LOVE this idea. Becoming entrenched is boring.
I hope this is where Rust is headed, to this type of long tern social gameplay. From what I have read and how I understand it, it is to be a living system, survival, PVP as a feature to help one survive, not the focus like Counterstrike or COD.
Edit: I forgot to add: Make things fall when you remove the base under them. No more exploiting floating items. If the cupboard would fall instead of float, bases could be taken. Now people get pissy and destroy the entire base instead.
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i think what seems to fail to be mentioned is that rust is built on emergent gameplay. it's not what rust is supposed to be, but what you can do with the tools provided.
legacy made a damn good counterstrike alternative, to the point that many mods were designed to basically factor out/simplify the survival components. other servers made closed arenas to keep those people in one place so the rest of the server could build ridiculous structures and jump off them. or make entire towns. or restricted the craft list to primitive gear only.
the point is that legacy can be more than just another fps. raiding and looting are part of it, but not all rust can be. it shouldn't be designed with raiding as the only end.
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Knifey; Yep! I agree. I was SO addicted to legacy. I play many hours, and still do on occasion when I want that type of gameplay. I love the type of battle and PVP situation it put people into, brilliant. I would build just past "Hacker Valley" then run into the rads to collect. It was scary and thrilling to sneak around trying not to be killed.
However, again I may be wrong, but from what I have ready, New Rust is defining a different type of emergent gameplay. I honestly cannot think of a way to describe it except creating a new world after the old one has passed. Living in that world, surviving. Not battle focused like legacy was, but with battle as a part of the struggle. PVP as a tool, not the reason to play.
If anyone smarter than an old truck driver can describe what I am trying to say better, please do. :-p
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C4 or something like it needs to be in the game, along with walls that can only be breached by it. This gives both builders and raiders something to strive for and extends the gameplay. It was pretty well balanced in legacy. Was hard enough to get and farm that it was always way cheaper to build walls than to breach them. This is why c4 or its standin cannot be air drop only. Someone is lucky to get 2c4 in 8 hours of playing from air drops alone. In the same time a player could build 6 layers of walls or more. This makes the game too safe, and that excitement is gone.rust thrives off the adrenaline of walking around with something extremedy valuable, like that m4 you found in small rad, explosives off the airdrop, or 12 c4 en route to a raid. A single death means hours of playing wasted, but the rewards for success are also very high. There will be no excitement in defending a base if it is too easy to become effectively unraidable.
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Far more than C4, I'd like to be able to commit arson. Pretty please?
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I wouldn't mind if wood was a tool breachable cheap structure. I enjoy seeing structures with a thick stone base and cheaper, weaker walls higher up. The main thing I want from breaching though is for a slowly widening hole to form as the wall is destroyed. Would make for some interesting grenade moments and would make repairing your crappy wood wall from the inside a bit more dangerous.
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Your idea of a hole forming needs to happen maybe not with the first hit but at say 25% of its hp left a hole (or cracks so it looks more realistic and hold some structural integrity) begins to emerge from the center that slowly works its way to the edge. Like you said in a way creating your own window into their base to lob nades or fire inwards upon them.
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People like it because it is easy... And I will probably never like the "new" rust because the legacy is and will always be the best :)
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You sir knows where Rust is all about :)
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Go farm c4 on legacy it takes much time and it is fun to lead your friends into a succesfull raid ^^ (totally dominate the map and raid people when they are online <3
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The problem with that is if it's too rare, bases will be built up far too large rendering the couple c4 you found useless.
Legacy had that balance perfected. Sure, it was easy for big groups (as anything with large groups will be), but large groups would tent to target other large groups.
C4 was a great team effort. I was in the middle of a raid with a group of 4-5 others. We breached all the way to the upper floor of a large tower. The loot was in the last room because the owners kept grabbing loot and moving upwards as we breached. We were 2 c4 short of getting into the final room. The enemies were holed up in the top floor. We decided to split our group and have 2 people farm in order to make 2 more c4 while the others stayed and defended what was already breached. In the end, the people holed up called for help and our defenders got killed. By the time we had the last 2 c4 made, some doors were already replaced. We lost 12-14 c4 and got nothing from the failed raid. That's a ton of resources we had to gather in order to make that kind of c4.
What was great about legacy c4 is it was a risk vs reward system. Sure, you could blow 2 c4 on a 1x1, but the major chance was that the resources used to make the c4 far outweighed loot gained from a 1x1.
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I agree with clandestina. Smoking out a target from the base is a great idea, burning structures great. The team would need to fight to keep the structure stable, and not become Mr. Crispy. I agree, we need to make raids worth the risk, hence the powder keg. It doesn't matter the explosive type, but I think a more primitive explosive is in keep with the theme of the game, while a discovered cache of C4 is also in keeping with the game premise of an apocalypse. One could also use skulls to make a smaller explosive, or even a primitive napalm/Greek fire for burning inhabitants out.
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If I'm just building I'm on my mates server but if I'm feeling social i go on The Love Dungeon Server.
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Losing doesn't mean anything to me, for nothing is truly lost, and I didn't flip out at all, I don't mind if i lose my stuff because it means i get a fresh start, and i can try something new.
I liked the old system, i like the new system, I've liked the changes, the only thing that bothers me is the current unstable building system. That's all. Its frustrating because I'm more builder than a raider and the fact that the system is unstable ruins my game play. So to compensate I've been raiding for more often than usual.
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Yeah, because farming animals is what raiders were doing, not just shooting people that were farming or raiding smaller bases to get more materials. With hatcheting down walls the work is placed strictly on the raider and time is given for the raidee to defend his or her valuables. The balance was way off last I heard, but it's puts the work where it should be. The teeter-totter has had a 300lbs 6 year old on the hostile player's side from the start, and not having C4 means he took off his backpack. =P
You still get to shoot anything that moves without regard for who they are or what they're doing, you just don't get anything from his corpse that lets you instantly get into anyone's base while they go to the bathroom. I get that you might have been one to make a fight out of the raids, but the majority weren't. Now, I get a reason to shoot if I walk by in the hour it takes you to beat down someone's wall. I can't assume everyone killing animals is doing so for C4, but if I see you walking at a snail's pace with a barrel on your back I know what you're up to.
Agree x 10
Dumb x 2
Disagree x 1
Funny x 1
Winner x 6
Informative x 3
Optimistic x 1
Friendly x 1
