[gravyface]

y0himba posted:

Oh wow! I like the idea of a battering ram! Imagine an entire team hauling this thing to the site, and using it to bash in the enemy door. Kinda like the powder keg, which takes one person to haul but it is heavy and slow. The ram would require less materials, but more team effort.

Yup, big heavy siege weapons would be killer and totally in-line with the tech level in Rust. Require two or more players to carry.

[Sudovim]

y0himba posted:

Raiding is EASY. two people, salvaged axes, 5 minutes or so. Sorry you need to put effort into it all of a sudden. Here is a thought, try not raiding unless you need to survive or defend?

I am fine with that as long as it works, 1 person 10 or 15 minutes. However it doesn't .. and even with 2 you'd be wrong.

[Sedate]

60 rounds ish from a Shotgun and 1200 with Thompson goes through a stone wall

Edited:

And/Or

[Sudovim]

Sedate posted:

60 rounds ish from a Shotgun and 1200 with Thompson goes through a stone wall

Edited:

And/Or

Ya I tried that, they heal too quickly.

[Falxhor]

Seriously when do people realize that a game that's unfinished aka early access and in this case alpha, that you don't get to judge the current state of that game. You can merely judge the direction it's going in, criticizing that is fine but right now people are criticizing the game for where it's at which is flat-out stupid.

Have the devs said they are developing Rust so raiding becomes barely possible due to impervious bases? No they haven't, they've shown signs that raiding will definitely be a part of Rust.
So take a chill pill, trust the developers (why else buy an early access game -.-?) and have some patience when a certain feature of the game is in a temporary not so ideal state.

[StryfeKhaos]

Falxhor posted:

Seriously when do people realize that a game that's unfinished aka early access and in this case alpha, that you don't get to judge the current state of that game. You can merely judge the direction it's going in, criticizing that is fine but right now people are criticizing the game for where it's at which is flat-out stupid.

Why do people assume that others are doing the former when they might just be doing the latter?

Criticizing a game's current mechanics IS judging the direction its going unless the developer has explicitly stated that the current mechanics is temporary. You don't get to cop out with 'it's alpha.' If you don't want folks to evaluate (and potentially criticize) a change to an existing or a new mechanic, explicitly state that the mechanic is temporary (and not just maybe temporary, as in the 'cupboard'). For example, the red animals in legacy are kind of silly, dropping loot (from where?), but nobody harped on it because it was pretty clear that they were just a placeholder to artificially remove zombies until the replacement could be developed.

"you don't get to judge the current state of that game"

Why do you get to tell people what they do and don't get to judge?

[Falxhor]

Yea okay okay Stryfe I'll rephrase; it's really fucking dumb to criticize a game feature's specifics/balance when that's clearly something temporary (not explicitly stated but it's pretty damn clear from reading the devblogs raiding will not be this close to impossible like it is now).

I don't get to tell what people get to do and don't get to do, my bad. I'm just sick of people swarming the Rust forum with threads on specific, usually balance, features that are bound to get changed. Just read up on devblogs and it should be pretty clear (even if not 100% explicitly stated).

Edit: by the way, the reason responses like "it's an alpha" come round even though legacy is also an alpha:
Legacy is still way further developed than experimental.

[gravyface]

I think part of the frustration stems from the lack of communication with each change: not enough "whys" with the "whats" so players are naturally anxious as to the direction the game is going in.

Builder vs raider will always be a hotly contested and disputed factor in Rust, so the types of conversations will always crop up.

[A. James]

Wood walls should be destructible with hammers and hatchets in 5 minutes per wall.
Stone walls should be destructible with high tier melee weapons. 15 minutes per wall.
Metal walls should be destructible with explosives only.

Doors should be a bit less, but metal doors still c4 only.

Damage shouldn't be dealt on a per hit basis; it should be calculated on the time continuously hit by a specific weapon. That way large groups of 7-10 people can't knock down a wall insanely fast.

[Malexion]

Siege weapons are on here: http://mind42.com/mindmap/7abd1334-d...9-f74010b9b143

So raiding means will be down the line.

[mrknifey]

A. James posted:

Wood walls should be destructible with hammers and hatchets in 5 minutes per wall.
Stone walls should be destructible with high tier melee weapons. 15 minutes per wall.
Metal walls should be destructible with explosives only.

Doors should be a bit less, but metal doors still c4 only.

Damage shouldn't be dealt on a per hit basis; it should be calculated on the time continuously hit by a specific weapon. That way large groups of 7-10 people can't knock down a wall insanely fast.

i'm not sure i agree. i play solo, so i'd hate to see my house demolished by 7-10 people, but in honesty, they COULD wreck it incredibly quickly because they have the numbers. 7 attacks every few seconds should do more damage than 1 every few seconds.

i would approach it like they did previously, with each piece having a large amount of health (graded depending on the piece, so a wooden door is far less "healthy" than a foundation) and weapons/tools deal a set amount of damage. decay could then be a factor as well, slowly rotting the walls unless you fix them. scrap regeneration so the walls CAN decay, or be broken down if there is no-one near to fix them.

otherwise, my opinion is changing. wood = broken by any tool. stone = metal tools. metal = explosives.

[gravyface]

A. James posted:

Wood walls should be destructible with hammers and hatchets in 5 minutes per wall.
Stone walls should be destructible with high tier melee weapons. 15 minutes per wall.
Metal walls should be destructible with explosives only.

Doors should be a bit less, but metal doors still c4 only.

Damage shouldn't be dealt on a per hit basis; it should be calculated on the time continuously hit by a specific weapon. That way large groups of 7-10 people can't knock down a wall insanely fast.

You've never tried to split wood before with an axe, have you?

[frank_walls]

gravyface posted:

You've never tried to split wood before with an axe, have you?

I know! I've spent nearly 15 minutes just chopping through one 6 inch piece of hard wood with a metal hatchet like the one in the game. And really, a hammer wouldn't do anything to a wood wall made of logs.

Maybe take away the wall healing and just really reduce the damage weapons do or increase wall health. Might be kind of cool to slowly chop away at someone's wall over the course of a few sessions. You know, run around and gather some stuff. Then stop by your neighbors house and weaken his wall for a bit. Do it again a little later. He never notices, but eventually you knock it down and get in.

[BrockSamsonFW]

I still like the idea of placing resources (wood, stone, metal, etc) into the cupboard and then have the walls regenerate only while the cupboard has enough resources to provide for it.

[Slow Moving]

y0himba posted:

I was on this evening, DOD server. I was able to remove two doors in under 13 minutes with the help of two friends. I have no idea what you are doing, but it works for me and my friends just fine. As for the code lock, leave it. You can play little psycho games to get the number, and the code lock makes for much better gameplay.

I just honestly do not understand why folks seem to have such a hard-on to get into houses at this point in the game's development. Everything is plentiful, easy to craft. Why the need to have an easy way into a house?

Make the houses next to impossible to raid, to give a goal to a team. Leave them next to impossible to raid for when it is actually necessary, and we have some type of explosive. (Vote for the powder keg!)

The game is not focused on your need to have action, raiding, conflict. It is a survival based focus, with a PVP element, and right now it is not critical to "raid" in order to survive.

It is not the game author's problem that you need that type of gameplay to not get bored. Next time, read the game description before purchasing. If you need that action element, play COD or something.

That is the problem right now, it isn't that hard to survive, once you get a house built to protect yourself there is no point to the game. On a server that isn't so populated that you get killed 10 times to get off a beach, I can have a house built and enough resources gathered that there is no point to the game. If you want a true survival game you are going to have to take the build system away and only allow you to build small huts and force you go hunt every day to survive.

I think the more popular servers are those that have the oxide plugins in them that give you enough resources to get started and then raiding is very popular.

[elixwhitetail]

Just remember that everything's subject to change as the game develops, and the experience in alpha is not representative of the final game. Especially because garry's philosophy with experiments in alpha is "if it sucks we'll get rid of it," but people forget that you can't determine if something sucks until you test it out. When building was first patched in, walls were practically free, because garry wanted to test walls and made it as easy as possible to make them. Resource costs were bumped up to more sane levels as building work progressed to other elements needing extra care.

In Star Citizen's latest patch they included a laser pistol as an easter egg if you land your ship and get out. It's almost as powerful as a ship gun and can completely destroy a ship in under 30 shots. This is strongly OP and is obviously not intended to be a permanent feature of the game.

Building durability will change again, probably several times before being properly balanced in the long run.

Sudovim posted:

If you don't want to be raided why the hell are you even playing Rust?? The only retard I see here is you.

Legacy is abandoned, hackers blatantly fly around in the official servers day and night without bans or admins or anybody who gives a shit anymore.

It's kind of funny you say this. I was reading the Cheatpunch thread for old times, and I came across this:

Sudovim posted:

I didn't cheat .. here is my full steam id ( I think )

-steam ID snipped-

garry posted:

Sudovim posted:

Here is mine, a 4th time.

-snipped again-

The Steam account on that ID is also VAC banned (274d old), and never owned any games but played Rust on Family Share.

Glass houses and all...

[Sudovim]

elixwhitetail posted:

Just remember that everything's subject to change as the game develops, and the experience in alpha is not representative of the final game. Especially because garry's philosophy with experiments in alpha is "if it sucks we'll get rid of it," but people forget that you can't determine if something sucks until you test it out. When building was first patched in, walls were practically free, because garry wanted to test walls and made it as easy as possible to make them. Resource costs were bumped up to more sane levels as building work progressed to other elements needing extra care.

In Star Citizen's latest patch they included a laser pistol as an easter egg if you land your ship and get out. It's almost as powerful as a ship gun and can completely destroy a ship in under 30 shots. This is strongly OP and is obviously not intended to be a permanent feature of the game.

Building durability will change again, probably several times before being properly balanced in the long run.





It's kind of funny you say this. I was reading the Cheatpunch thread for old times, and I came across this:



The Steam account on that ID is also VAC banned (274d old), and never owned any games but played Rust on Family Share.

Glass houses and all...

You would be correct 100%, I cheated I got lazy and cheated. I am guessing you've never made a mistake huh?

I am not sure how that's on topic with the game breaking changes as of late? I guess it's easier to point out somebody else faults than address your own though.

[elixwhitetail]

I've never been banned for cheating.

Your history of cheating doesn't have anything to do with the current state of experimental, and I'm done posting about it now, but you were complaining about cheaters running around legacy, several times recently, when you used to be part of the problem. However, you seem to have learned your lesson, at least.

On the actual topic, I know everyone's sick of hearing it, but "We're in alpha" really does mean things like this will happen occasionally, and they'll straighten out in time.

[Sudovim]

elixwhitetail posted:

I've never been banned for cheating.

Your history of cheating doesn't have anything to do with the current state of experimental, and I'm done posting about it now, but you were complaining about cheaters running around legacy, several times recently, when you used to be part of the problem. However, you seem to have learned your lesson, at least.

On the actual topic, I know everyone's sick of hearing it, but "We're in alpha" really does mean things like this will happen occasionally, and they'll straighten out in time.

You are correct, I don't find experimental playable and I find the lack of support in the legacy servers to be more than annoying ( hey I got banned and learned my lesion, why have you given up on the rest of us dealing with hackers ) How hard would it be to find some players who can admin official servers? They can't be worse than the way they are ignored now.

I understand it's "alpha" (for quite awhile now ) but to sell us the game with the vision of X and then switch it to Y seems like quite the switch and bait. I bought this game as a Zombie, survival game with the ability to build and raid. Pretty much none of that has come to pass.

What is the final outcome of this game? What will be the point? I think we have the right to know what the end product will be? Is it time to cut my losses and move on to H1Z1? I think it's a fair question.

[elixwhitetail]

Sudovim posted:

I bought this game as a Zombie, survival game with the ability to build and raid. Pretty much none of that has come to pass.

The Steam Store page for Rust has never mentioned zombies, nor did they appear in any of the legacy screenshots in the store page on launch day a year ago, or since. Zombies were supposed to be removed before the game even hit Steam but the devs didn't get that done in time, and then we got red animals as a placeholder for the placeholder, but at least it stopped making people believe Rust was a "zombie survival" title -- because it wasn't. The only ones calling Rust a zombie survival game were fans on the hype train, endlessly repeating misinformation.

And, you're getting a game that allows you to "build and raid". But it's not finished yet. As for what the final outcome of the game will be, remember this:


You've already paid for the game and it will stay in your library permanently. Go ahead and play H1Z1 for a few months and then check back in on Rust. Development will continue in your absence, and you may even find the game more enjoyable by then.

Games take 3-4 years to make, it's just that normally you would never get to watch the first ~2 years happening, at all. It'd be hidden behind NDAs and secrecy, and if a game was killed during development, most people wouldn't ever know anything about it except maybe hearing its codename mentioned in passing as a canceled project.

[Sudovim]

That still doesn't tell us the player base what the plan is for end game, the day somebody above says " This is what I wanted to make"

What is that???

[kulan]

This tells us tho Mind Map or give us a guide at least :)
Or here Trello Dev stie
and here Friday dev blogs 1-39
fair bit on here if you look Rust on Reddit
oh and another good site for info (nice one bugs) Rustafied's web site
and Here About rust
and about updates here rust updates on twitter

[Impos]

as old rust player my imo...new rust suck..legacy was my love(best)game ever i played. why they didnt finish legacy rust..and let us play..so later u can just make rust2..but no...u fucked this game.

[Miilos]

I'd just like to note that I tried playing last night for the first time in a few weeks, and could do no sustainable damage... to anything (even lowest level wooden doors)... with a metal hatchet... which just doesn't seem right. It would heal too quickly, most of the time the health of the building piece not even bothering to drop.

So yeah, broken. I have a feeling a salvaged axe would fare little to no better.

[igetkilz]

i dont like the new rust, They have taken out the feel off legacy. I will keep on playing legacy i dont think i will ever play the new one.

[IronOxide]

99% of raiding is with the homeowner offline anyway. Not sure how anyone gets enjoyment out of that tbh. Shouldny it be about raiding while theyre online...

[ppehrson]

ReDLoT posted:

Because raids it's all Rust gameplay, without raid it's just a poor minecraft

Please, fix walls bug, we need to destroy walls :x

Says WHO?
It might be that YOU want to play the game like that.

What if most don't, or the developers wish to minimize raiding? On many (non-official) servers, raiding is even disallowed. Raiders tend to break the game for those who wish to improve stuff.

I would actually prefer zombies/npc's back that at least made people try to co-op against them.

[withnail]

It seems to be impossible to raid at the minute if you're a solo player.

I got lucky when some idiot left his wardrobe poking through a wall so I could knock his doors down and throw up others, after clearing him from the wardrobe and securing it properly. Someone else came in while I was crafting the new lock so I had to smack them over the head with the hatchet.

But that was a very lucky break. I managed to suppress my will to murder long enough to get another player to try and break a wall with me, but we couldn't do it. More than two people to organise and meet in game is beyond tough as a solo player.

[y0himba]

Another point we are missing, is the fact that we are TESTING features. KOS and constant action/raid types can make that near impossible. When the game is finished and released, then raiders/KOS/toughactiontalkdudes will have reason and necessity. Until then, it seems to be just a bit trollish to do nothing but raid and kill. Just my opinion.

Sorry if I am late, but some of us need to work for a living.

[mattb78]

I like that raiding has been made much more difficult.

2 or 3 guys taking axes and breaking down your wall in 5 minutes was a joke.

[Iringahn]

Just want to point out to all the people arguing about how many people it takes to take down X, it appears to not be a consistent number because for some people on some servers the regen is faster then other people.

I have confirmed cases where I was able to solo a wooden door, and another case when 2 shotguns and a Thomson could not even get 100 hp through the door before it was full again.

Regen is currently not static, there is some sort of modifier or bug at work that changes the value making it even harder if not impossible to destroy any object with any amount of people

[GrymThor]

"Raiders rage as walls heal"

[y0himba]

It is not static. I watched 3 guys with salvaged axes break through a stone wall in 10 minutes. They proceeded through the house with no issues. I went in behind them as they were concentrating on a wall, and took the three of them out with the salvaged hammer. My neighbor was very grateful.

Raiders are (IMO) just crying because they actually need to work to get in now. I cannot wait for powder kegs and siege weapons. :)

[YMIHere]

y0himba posted:

It is not static. I watched 3 guys with salvaged axes break through a stone wall in 10 minutes. They proceeded through the house with no issues. I went in behind them as they were concentrating on a wall, and took the three of them out with the salvaged hammer. My neighbor was very grateful.

Raiders are (IMO) just crying because they actually need to work to get in now. I cannot wait for powder kegs and siege weapons. :)

While I agree that raiders should have to work at getting in (and in a way that leaves them visible as raiders) the balance seems to be way off right now. It's exponentially(not sure this is quite the word I'm looking for) faster to get into a base with a team, so much so that sometimes without a certain amount of people you can't get in at all. I don't particularly see this as more realistic or fun, and frankly I'm worried how much the regeneration rate for every building piece on the server is affecting performance.

[withnail]

The other day I stopped fucking with my neighbours long enough to actually get four of us together to try break something. We all had salvaged axes. Couldn't break anything, wood or stone. This was on Washington server.

[infusednz]

regen is bugged at the moment. once it's fixed, it's not that hard.

[UneManArmy]

I was on the Official Washington server today after the small update. A guy was bragging about raiding an entire valley solo and that it only took him 10 minutes per stone wall with a metal hatchet to break them down. My buddy confirmed that hitting stone walls with a metal hatchet worked for him too.

IMO, i liked the raiding system better in Legacy, where C4 was really your only viable raiding tool. It was expensive to make, not easy to find the patterns to craft, and required some actual tactics to use because it wasn't an unlimited resource. It required raiders to really put in some decent work to pull off a raid. They had to actually get the materials and patterns to craft it, scout out houses, see who lived there, judge if it had the resources inside worth using the C4, and then make a plan for breaking and entering so they didn't waste C4.

I do not think that bases should be able to be destroyed by hand tools with unlimited health on the tool. This allows any naked fresh spawn with half a brain to gather up enough materials to craft a hatchet. Then find the nearest base, put a weight on their mouse to chop the wall, go afk, and then come back some time later for the loot with minimal effort. It doesn't matter how much health you give it, or how long it takes to break down, if all they need is a single hatchet per person. They will simply wait until you are offline, go to your house and repeat the steps above to gain access. I thought we would have learned this lesson with the previous building system that got scrapped..

And I realize its Alpha, still under heavy development, not really balanced yet, and subject to drastic changes. But it shouldn't be too difficult to prioritize content development to happen in a certain order for the game to remain fun for those of us trying to help test it. Because what is the point in testing a game (you are not getting paid to play), if you are not having fun while doing it? IMO, I think bases should probably be un-raidable (by destroying building parts), until they can properly implement a durability system for the tools, or add some explosive which takes a lot of resources to craft. Preferably the explosives as I really disliked the durability from Legacy. Raiders should be required to put in a good amount of thought and effort (including time+resources) into pulling off a successful raid.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents for what is worth.
/end rant

[withnail]

I think there should still be a way to melee walls - although it should take a prohibitively long time. The way it used to be with the gold walls I think was good. But definitely put c4 back in. When a c4 charge goes off, I'd get a little flood of pleasure endorphins. That's the kind of thing that makes a game fun.

[DavidBowie]

Should be-

Wood walls = hatchet
stone walls = expensive tool
metal walls = c4/powder keg

They actually had the first two parts of that down for a few weeks and it was the best state raiding balance has been in since experimental launched. Since then it's been either raiding is basically impossible or raiding = craft a hatchet 2 mins after spawning and afk with rock on mouse.

[utilitron]

DavidBowie posted:

Should be-

Wood walls = hatchet
stone walls = expensive tool
metal walls = c4/powder keg

They actually had the first two parts of that down for a few weeks and it was the best state raiding balance has been in since experimental launched. Since then it's been either raiding is basically impossible or raiding = craft a hatchet 2 mins after spawning and afk with rock on mouse.

I would prefer siege weapons over explosives.