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Post #41
Why don't? Give me all that 6 millions that Rust have collected before this summer (and for now sum can be twice more), and i will just hire big team who will know how to do things. Rest of the money i will donate to the pet shelters, and also buy myself some food.
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...and when rust is done, fire them all because you have no money. Great plan for the future of Facepunch.
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... you suggesting to pay people for doing nothing? When Rust is done, and released - more people will buy it becuase it will be a full game, and not an unplayable alpha, and then you can use that money to pay for making new game.
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i think you have an unrealistic belief in your game production skills. i don't know you personally, so you could indeed be better at making games than the makers of garrys mod, one of the biggest source games around; but i doubt it.
bigger teams don't often mean better production speed. the more programmers you have, the bigger the f*ckups if they can't work well together. the rust team is streamlined, has doubled in size since april, and is working pretty damn efficiently. i wish people would stop whinging about how long a rewrite takes.
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If it were a rewrite, I'd be whining. It was a re-design and re-architecting and re-platforming. If they had just rewrote Legacy with better designed code, I'd have to think it'd be done by now.
They took the long way round, and will hopefully get back to legacy after picking up a whole bunch of game improving hitchhiking features along the way.
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o/ raise your hand if you want egg sandwich to drop when you kill in game chickens. o/
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Maybe that's how you'd do it. But we enjoy making games, it's not work to us. It's not a factory assembly line where we just want to add more and more people to get the game done faster.
Hiring people to do it for us isn't what we started making games for.
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You can't see it, but I am not raising my hand.
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I had always assumed that with hiring for this kind of job, you reach a point of diminishing returns -- there's only so many people you can throw at a particular task anyway. I also had the idea that too many cooks in the kitchen make a bad soup, and FP didn't want to water down their vision with too many potentially conflicting ideas.
Edited:
If you were totally happy with legacy, go play it. I personally want to see more out of the game -- as much as I love legacy, FP can improve on that formula.
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Not every programmer just develops whatever they want willy nilly. Presumable with a plan, you could assign programmers to work on specific tasks that don't involve working on the 'vision' at all.
I appreciate Garry's response. It's not one of the many annoying attempts by non-FP folks to incorrectly apply Brooks' law. The post should be stickied and filed under 'why doesn't Facepunch hire a bunch of developer's to speed up development'.
Edited:
I didn't say I was totally happy with Legacy. I was happier with where Legacy was than the current state. As someone who enjoyed playing Rust, I would have preferred that the new version got to the same state legacy was in faster, but that is not the direction FP chose. I trust that it'll get there and it'll be better for it in the long run.
My main point as that it wasn't just a rewrite. Microsoft rewrote Minecraft to put it on the XBOX, and the game was fundamentally the same. Like I said, this was a redesign, re-architecting, and replatforming. Those things take longer than just a rewrite.
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What Prov3rbial said was basically another version of brook's law. "You reach a point of diminishing returns." That is the essence of brook's law.
Reading gerry's post, it seems he took "hire a big team" to mean "outsource the work" rather than hire people to work at facepunch.
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I wasn't referencing Brook's law, but simply diminishing returns. Brook's law implies other things. But yeah, it's a good quote to pull out the next time a demands FP hires more people, I agree.
And I think in the past I might've misread you. I thought you were one of the people who was always down on the entire project, so when I saw your post, I assumed you intended it in a rude way. My bad, man.
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I think all the "bitching" and complaints is caused by users paying for an unfinished product. I gladly payed for it and understood from day 1 that it was a "work in progress."
I believe I read the first blog last year that the initial purchases #'s were alot higher than expected on Steam.
It's a scary thought in business to explode overnight and expand to keep the" clients" happy and keep your "core mission statement" in tack.
My real question has always been....Was this "game" ever intended to be a truly finished product sold @50 U.S. dollars and support hundreds of thousands of "people?"
Example the space game "EVE" can have 40000 on at any given time.
Or is it just a 100 person world only on 1 server.
Love your game and have converted handfuls of FPShooter lovers to it.
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EVE Online doesn't have all 40,000 players on a single instance, it has them spread across thousands of servers represented by different star systems.
Rust isn't an "MMO" in that sense, although there are hints towards linking servers together by sailing over the ocean. In that sense, Rust could be considered to be approaching a structure vaguely like EVE, but with far less emphasis (for now, at least--all could change in the future) on the cross-server links. I expect Rust servers will probably top out at 500 connected players on one server for all but the most popular servers (and wilyRussianserver-forwarding tryhards), but I can't predict how the server will be able to scale up...could end up with 2,000-slot servers across huge maps with entire "nations" at war with each other, in the long run.
Note: I'm not a dev, this is my own opinion only. I could be wrong about everything.
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I think what people need to realize is that when it comes to hiring people, it is a lot like a real time strategy game. Imagine this:
Commander Garry starts off with
10million gold
-Peon factory(A game title)-RUST
>Peons cost gold 1000 every month
>Peons take( 2 months to train)//reduced effeciency of other peons by 20% during training
>Garry can make new factories, but they will be a new game title.
-A coding Mine at the bottom of the factory(Where peons mine for code)
----Individual Peon code yield per second= (110 - (10 * PEONS_IN_MINE)) //AKA you get decreasing individual yields the more peons you have
----You make 3000 gold monthly for every Peon factory you have
Now Führer Garry wants to get as much code as possible. What does he do?
A <Make a new peon factory>
B <Spam build peon workers till progress comes to a hault>
C <Go play rust, this game is gay>
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oversimplification on my behalf;)
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The woman making sandwiches huh....figures. Maybe when you guys finally add a woman character in the game her special power could be she makes sandwiches from dead humans extremely well.
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No, the essence of Brooks's law is not diminishing returns. I think a lot of people think that, which is why I believe it is so often misapplied. The essense of Brook's law is that when faced with a project that is going to be late, adding people won't typically prevent it from being late. This is not because of diminishing returns, but because of realities with software development, like ramp up time. There are three key constraints on a development effort -- resources, time, and scope. Brooks's law is a comment about how they aren't all perfectly correlated, not that resources are bounded by diminishing returns (which they are, but that's obvious and Brooks wouldn't have a law named after him if that's all or even just the essence of what he was saying).
In the last 20 years, I don't remember ever being on a project that suffered from having 'too many developers'. I'm not sure I've heard any colleague say 'man, we have too many people working on this.' Diminishing returns is a problem a lot of project teams would love to have. The frustration captured in Brooks' law is that instead of properly staffing a project up front, management thinks they can add a bunch right at the end to suddenly get a project to come in on time.
With all that, I think any time anyone has invoked it regarding Rust, it has been done so improperly. Rust has no public deadline, and I don't guess that Garry has one internally at this point, so Brooks's law doesn't apply. I think diminishing returns has also been overly invoked, because I don't know how anyone would know or be able to guess that FP has so many developers already working on rust that adding one more wouldn't be effective in the long run.
I also don't feel like Garry was talking about 'outsourcing the work'. I think he was saying that hiring a bunch of new folks would FEEL like outsourcing the work, and would mean less fun work for the current FP, but I could be wrong. He wasn't saying that more people wouldn't make it go faster, which some have implied, IMO. It's that it would change their culture, and they don't want to do that.
Edited:
Oh no, my comment wasn't directed at you so much as those who call it a rewrite, wonder why it isn't done yet, all while ignoring the fact that things like procedural map generation were added along the way.
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Garry's point is that the catering staff has nothing to do with Rust, and the thread begins by asking if FP has enough people to work on Rust while also developing four other prototypes, which is a pointless question to ask unless it's a warm-up to bitching about Rust not being ready.
Considering the number of women hired onto the Rust devteam, sexism is not a problem at FP Studios.
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but then we will have to introduce craftable kitchen sinks for them to wash up afterwards ;D *waits for backlash*
but in all seriousness, i think it's just that little old ladies make better sandwiches than old men. my spag bol is left in the dust when my partner cooks, even though we use the same ingredients;)
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Its a bit of a stereotype but if Facepunch is based on a standard office park/industrial estate in the UK the person coming round selling sandwiches at lunchtime is probably female, she will probably be the catering business owner or co-owner. Possibly because the working hours fits very well with school hours and the costs of setting up the business are relatively low that type of catering business seems to attract a disproportionate number of mothers returning to work now that their kids are old enough to go to school.
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I love this thread.
Here's a fun simile for you. This isn't aimed at anybody in particular, so:
Rust is like your face, and the development team is like a bunch of fists. If they all try to punch you in the face at once it won't work. They each have to take turns, punching 2 or 3 at a time. You can hire 1000 fists, but no matter how many you hire they can still only punch you 2 or 3 at a time.
Eventually your face will be beaten to a pulp, and eventually Rust will be finished. Just be patient and take your face punches.
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Rust needs E-Z bake ovens.
And on that note, despite being a female, my partner has zero cooking skills.
Also, can we sticky Frank's post above? :P
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The fact that the lead developer even bothers to come on the forums and talk to the players of their game should say enough. As was mentioned previously, the entire problem is based in the fact that people don't want to accept that they bought an unfinished game. Personally, I don't care how f**king long it takes. Just being involved in the process and watching the changes along the way is enough for me. I know that the end product will be a great game. There's a lot of pressure put on Facepunch because of the unexpected, viral popularity of the game, which is where all the whining comes in. Kudos to them for even being able to handle it because, honestly, if it were me, I'd have told all the whiners to take a long walk off a short pier a long time ago. As Garry himself mentioned above, they do this because they like making games. So let them do their thing... and if you don't like the results, go re-read the Steam terms of what Early Access means. Just because you got Early Access doesn't mean they're going to make THEIR game the way you want. I also agree with Prov3rbial. Frank's post should headline the Forum. LOL
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You know, I feel for the people that come on here and are upset about the game. Not too long ago I was one of them, but I made a mistake because I didn't really look beyond what was posted on the devblog - which I think actually leads to unrealistic expectations. After spending time on the forums, looking at Trello, and seeing some real progress from where the game was even just a month ago I feel good about where it's headed and have faith in the FP team again.
Sure FP made some mistakes, maybe didn't plan for the worst/best case scenario of selling millions of copies, but they're honestly making up for it. They're putting together a larger team of talented designers and trying to create something bigger than what Legacy was.
I love Early Access because for people that truly love games you get so much more than just a game. You get the experience of being there while it's made. You can even be a part of it and make suggestions, do some play testing, and bitch about whatever you want (just don't post animated gifs!).
If you don't like it, and you can't see past the sentence you type in the little box on your screen then piss off and go play something "finished".
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they have dedicated people on rust all the matters
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