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sooo besides fixing trees/grass nothing was added this week? lol.
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the inabilty to play for half the rust population was also added.
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I don't care for the cupboard system... No that is way too light of sentence... I hold utter disdain for the cupboard system.
I, as a designer/engineer, have had a lot of respect for Garry for staying away from "game systems". Rule sets like these are rarely executed properly on the first iteration, and more than likely will never fully work as intended. It won't be due to the lack of effort on the design teams side, but due to reconciliation of logistical issues it will cause.
The reason for staying away from game systems is not just because it adds an artificial and unrealistic layer to the game, but because unintended issues can arise.
Part of what I do for a living is to look at issues and solve problems. The engineer in me can't look at a system without analyzing it. I attempt to reconcile flaws, and design better systems.
I do this by:
- Looking at the problem, and breaking it down to it's parts.
- Looking at the desired outcome of the solution and match it up to the problem.
- Looking for potential issues with proposed solutions, and attempt to reconcile any logistical issues.
Garry has stated the desired outcome of the cupboard system:
Because we are looking at a very specific and limited scoped issue.
- Players can add foundations, and therefore stairs, to existing structures.
- Players can build on unsecured foundations of existing structures.
Here is the markers (I believe) need to be hit:
- Prevent griefing: Stop stairs/ladders from being built onto the existing house.
- Prevent griefing: Stop things from being built in front of doors.
- Allow for players to upgrade/make additions to existing structures.
Although the cupboard system meets these markers, there are blatant logistical issues that will arise, and need to be addressed.
Here is a list of issues that will need to be addressed:
- Not building a cupboard: Someone could just come along and drop one on your doorstep, demolish a wall and gain instant access.
- Poor placement of a cupboard: Someone raiding happen to get into the room with your cupboard, take it over and gain instant access to the entire base.
- No doors needed: Someone could build a base with no doors and hidden stash rooms and just remove and replace walls to walk through the base.
- Utilizing a cupboard to redesign a base during a raid: Someone raiding to gain control of your cupboard remove a doorway and replace it with a wall. Boxing in the cupboard.
- Unreachable placement of a cupboard: Someone building a cupboard in a tower and demolish all stairs to reach it. No one will be able to reach it because they can't build up to it.
- Systematic take over of a region: Someone can build unreachable cupboard towers to eliminate the ability of other players encroaching on their territories.
- Systematic take over of the map: Someone can build unreachable cupboard towers to eliminate the ability of other players building anywhere.
- Systematic take over of all bases: Someone raiding to gain control of your cupboard and move the cupboard to an unreachable tower, to eliminate the ability of the original owners retaking their base.
Because of the nature of this system, it is highly exploitable. These are just the exploits I have come up with or read in the past few days and the system isn't even in place yet. Once we have access I am sure more will come to light.
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1) Nobody cries for the removal of locks because the noobs don't know how to put locks on their doors, why should this be any different?
2)That's not an exploit, that's someone who hasn't learned proper base building strategies, derp.
3)Easy fix if garry puts a condition on bases that require at least one door to lay a cupboard down. Make the cupboard disappear if they try to remove the last door or something, there's a few options.
4)The biggest exploit in your list, but still not impossible to deal with. I would personally rather have the protection radius be bigger for your base to prevent issues like this, essentially making your base have one flag that can be captured. Time will tell for this one.
5-8) Easy fix if garry can make it so the cupboard's protection radius is flat and not spherical.
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new commands for airpdrop calling?
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Zipper, is there anything that you don't agree with Facepunch on? Geezuz.
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Am I the only one that kinda liked the hammering system? Maybe it needed tweaked but I don't like getting rid of it altogether, people should not be able to build huge untouchable bases in minutes.
I like having to get somewhere safe built while being paranoid anyone could come by while I was doing it, in my opinion getting a huge lvl 6 building up really quickly will get boring really quickly. Good for people who like to just build, not so good for people wanting some survival in there as well.
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This was Garry's own example of an issue. It may not be a big deal, or it may. It requires the cupboard to be built in the first steps of building a base.
This doesn't have to be "noobs who forgot" this can easily be a person building their base and they didn't have the resources for the cupboard yet. they made a 1x1 and have gone to gather more resources.
The reason it is an issue is because the taking over of the cupboard nullifies all doors in a base, because walls can be removed. This changes the strategy, and goal of raiding. It's not about stealing resources anymore. It will be about controlling the base. The quicker you gain access to the cupboard, the quicker you can tear through their entire base to get all their supplies.
I wouldn't call this an "easy fix" because it is completely exploitable. Put the door inside a sealed room on the 30th floor. I just bypassed your fix.
This "easy fix" actually makes #2 more prevalent. What will "proper base building strategies" be when you are required to leave your cupboard on the ground floor.
And that is the biggest issue of all: once you control the cupboard, it is now your base.
Because you called "dibs" on a cupboard, apparently.garry posted:
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Ok seriously someone builds a 1x1 then needs more resources? Thats a stretch, no one starts a build without lots of resources in hand. I personally wont start without 50k wood plus and 10k stone. If your starting with 200 wood your an idiot and deserve whatever greif comes your way
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ooooo, walking hardware store :D
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The current speed in which you gather resources is a bit over the top. Also, as far as I am aware a weight limit system will be eventually added so player's simply cannot carry that much around.
This was really a for instance. You can replace 1x1 with another arbitrary building size. I was illustrating the point that a secured cupboard is required to be part of your initial build steps otherwise when you leave to gather more resources your base can be stolen even if you have locked doors.
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So what, a door is also part of my first steps, a wall with a door opening is its all required fisrts steps. So is a furnace, sleeping bag etc etc. if we have to craft one extra thing big deal. I have no problem with the cupboard as a fix for now so we can explore a bit more of the game without being paranoid about whonis gonna screw up my base by building crap all iver it. Come smash down my door if you want to loot me.
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Allowing demolition with a cupboard seems like a highly exploitable situation. I wouldn't mind my building going quicker with it, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the entirety of my base for it. I'm not sure this is a great way to add demolition, perhaps another cupboard like object for it so people can opt in. It would have to be an add on to a cupboard, and it'd be adding more dev time to a system that we can hopefully get rid of with something better.
The floating cupboards would also be a problem, maybe they are only allowed to be placed on foundations.
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I dont see a problem with any of it once the buildin system has gravity. No floating anythings after that. And as far as someone building towers to claim larger patches of land... I thought everyone felt the map was too big anyway! So who cares if they claim a chunk, and if you dont want them to then attack and destroy their cupboads. Its all conjecture until we try it out.
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I'm hoping that you would just be able to select the next tier within the building parts and then place a new upgraded part over the old one. This way you eliminate the hammering and keep it like it is in Legacy. But that might be me. :)
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I kinda like the hammering, theres a sense of accomplishment
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This is really all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to be the facepunch fanboy, hoping everything they implement stays in the game. I really just hate base griefers and if this offers a temporary fix to the issue so that I can play the game again, I'm all for it. But down the road, when garry starts talking about this brand new system of base defense that nullifies the usefulness of the cupboard, you'll see me right there on the forums pushing for its release; because you're right utilitron, the system isn't perfect, it's merely a band-aid.
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Where has actually been said, that a cupboard will enable you to remove parts of your base? As far as I understood, this will not be the case.
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Here
Well hopefully it all works out in the end. It's obvious nothing I say is going to change the fact Garry is going fourth with this system.
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Wow.. my bad. In that case, I serioulsy hope demolishing still still takes a reasonable amout of time. I tended to build no-door-bases/rooms in legacy whenever I encountered a /remove server on legacy. I always had an odd feeling on it though.. :-/
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Okay, so we've all heard about the new cupboards and their 30 meter exclusion zone, but I have no idea how big 30 meters is "in game"? Would this cover the footprint of a 5x5 base? What about 8x8 or 10x10?
Does anybody know how large the current foundation tiles are in meters? (I would guess around 2m - 2.5m each)...
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they should make ti so you have to interact with the cupboard on a daily(?) basis to keep the protection alive. that will prevent a few abuses, including walling the thing in.
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It's a 30m radius, so a 60m diameter. Each foundation is 3m. So 20x20-ish
Because it is circular you won't be competently covered in a 20x20 we have to get the diagonal distance. So we need the square root of (3^2 + 3^2) = ~4.2426. So 30 / 4.2426 = ~7
A 14x14 base will be fully encompassed by the cupboard.
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for visual ref The blue represents the cupboard which i believe should be named a Wardrobe, cupboard sounds so kitcheny,
This time done with 3 meter blocks LOL.
Got to love sketchup. :)
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I always liked the remove tool from Oxide. It was great for preventing griefing. People could still build on your house, but once they placed a piece you owned it. You could then just remove the crap they built, getting the parts they used in your inventory, and repair your house/base. That was a simple solution.
Not sure I like the idea of people being able to just take over my house by controlling a cupboard. Talk about a game killing experience. Imagine having a great base you've spent hours and hours building. Someone takes it and you end up in field with a rock and have lost all your stuff.
At least with the Oxide tool when you woke up naked and robbed you still had the shell of house to return to. There were in fact times I got raided and tore down my entire house and rebuilt somewhere else.
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Frank, the intention has been and will always be for you to be able to lose your house. It's part of the game.
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Only banks should be able to take your house!
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Losing in a game is now an exploit.
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Maybe the demolish will be based on time? Meaning you can only do it X amount of minutes after its placement, or that it turns off once you log off. *As so to keep from suicide and/or no exit bases.
ZippyBear, I apologize. Your last response showed I assumed wrong.
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Impressive maths utilitron, thanks!
Thanks for the visual ref, kulan! So 14x14 should be big enough for anyone. And I guess it extends upwards indefinately, or you could just build overhead...
Got to love sketchup. :)
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Im sure Garry knows what hes doing without giving him negative comments.
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That's just how the StructureMaster class works. StructureComponent has no ownerID property, only the StructureMaster to which it is attached has that property. I believe Doors and Window Bars retain the ownerID of the player that deployed them, even if onto someone else's structure. Don't hold me to that. :)
Capture it back from them. Or take their base. This is a good thing!
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