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Post #81what makes you think people dont understand that? this is how a game evolves, player feedback
View Poll Results: Should the key/lock system be changed
- Voters
- 139. You may not vote on this poll
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Yes
106 76.26% -
No
33 23.74%
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Keys are really one of those features where the developers need to focus on "what is the objective of implementing keys from a game play perspective" and "are keys having the intended effect?"
I feel the intended purpose of keys is to create an extra layer of risk when it comes to venturing out into the world. If a player kills you in the world and they know where you live, you are at risk of having your base raided. This is an OK objective. Certainly debatable in terms of desirability but its a legitimate game play element for the developers to pursue.
The problem is that the key system, as implemented, does not have this effect. There are too many work around that a player can use in order to maintain a secure base. Many of these work around (leaving your keys in the base and suicide each time you wish to enter) are very tedious in addition to unrealistic and frankly not fun. Given the alternative -- running around with keys and risking your base being raided, I expect this strategy (or something similar) to become the defacto play-style in rust.
So what have keys done? They've created the possibility of risk that 99% of players will ameliorate through tedious, unrealistic gameplay techniques. This being the case, do keys, as currently implemented, contribute positively to the gameplay experience?
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Lets be honest, the Key system is not really the issue. The issue is the lack of options.
As soon as we get multiple lock types this issue is going to go away.
The keypad system isnt flawless, my mates and I have managed to get through peoples doors on several occasions by either guessing the code or tricking a town into accepting one of us to get the code before we raid them.
I love the idea of having a dead lock style system to lock the door from the inside.
I'd like to see something like 2fa, where you need a key and the correct code.
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built a combination lock from scratch recently?
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I like the idea of the keys and It make sense in this game. I also think the idea of being able to steal keys is fine. Its part of the whole survival thing and gives you even more of a reason not to die. What is bull fucking horse shit is that if I die I cant make a new key and I get locked in my house. Yeah you can prepare and make a bunch right away but you should be able to make a key at any time even after death. Also one key should work on everydoor. Maybe even a color coding system. Like for example all the doors on floor one of my house use blue keys and all the ones on my second floor use purple keys and so on and so forth. That would keep for having your inventory getting filled to the brim with just keys that are not labeled for a million different doors
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I limit myself to copy paste what i said before in another post
improve, yes. but no change
the current system is original, hard, fit the concept of rust, and scalable (improvement depending on the level).
and that is why we do not take it off.
but I agree it needs improvement, some according to me:
A) keychain (just the grouping of keys with keychain that you can open doors that you added their respective key). an alternative is master key with the same logic keychain. note: you can have more than one keychain / master key.
B) doors can be locked from the inside so that the key can not open. (imagine a string to close the door or block it with a metal pipe) XD
C) change the lock (if you have stolen the keys) do not know if this is currently possible. sorry for that.
D) bury / hide / camouflage or break your Culquiera these keys but I prefer it to have to bury them.
tip: never ask for something to be removed abruptly from one application to contribute their ideas and opinions, I'm sure that will be more appreciated than cold objectivity and baseless comments. remember that it is the work of someone when you talk about not working or wrong done. and I am sure that such criticisms are not welcome regardless of who has the right.
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A wooden combination lock seems more craftable to me than the key lock.
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http://playrust.com/friday-devblog-28/
"If you’ve run Rust in the last few days you’ll have noticed that experimental is now the default option. Which means it isn’t experimental anymore. This is what Rust is."
Sure, it's still not released, but experimental meant something when they called it that, and it no longer applies.
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thats a pretty cool link:) unfortunately, a wooden lock of any description would last a few hits at the most; i have no problem with it(made of metal) for higher tiers though once you are set up with better tools than a rock.
my point, (though a bit snide), was that its not so easy to make a combination lock from primitive tools. a key lock wouldn't be too hard when you think the old school locks are basically just a tumbler with an internal plate that matches the bits cut out of the key to let it turn if it matches. they didn't even have springloaded pins;)
its a tier system, there needs to be a simple option, and a combination lock is not simple.
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does it really matter
its a game where all you need to create a house is wood and a hammer
i dont really care about realism, just good mechanics
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Too much arguing and putting people down these days. Man that is just sad. But anyway back to the question/comment about lock and key.
First to clear the air, we ALL realize this is just experimental. Ok that's out of the way!
I agree, the lock and key needs to go away. A cool looking lock like the one currently in game can stay, but a bunch of keys, no thanks. Maybe just a combo system (5 digit at most) would be cool while maintaining the look of the lock.
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The main defence for keeping Key Locks that i can see is that it is only going to be a tier 1 lock, and can you will be able to upgrade to a better higher tier locking system.
Thats no reason to keep it in, why not find a tier 1 system which people actually enjoy and which works well with the game. The wooden combination lock would be a much better tier one lock in my opinion, maybe it could be breakable, or maybe you only get a three digit combination while its tier 1 (which can increase while the tiers increase).
The current Key system is rubbish as it (imo ;D) you can spend all day building a base - go out for an adventure, get killed by a bear, lose your key and so lose your base (or even better, get locked inside it).
The whole "Its realistic" thing doesnt cut it for me. They choose to go for Fun over Realism in other parts of the game so why does it have to be Realsim over fun in this case.
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This is a survival game. If there was no risk involved with creating a large base then it wouldn't be a survival game, it would be the Sims.
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Wow. I really hope that Garry doesn't give in to all this whining. To be brutally honest, its pathetic.
Rust is not supposed to be an easy game where you hack away and make a fortress in a day and defend from the occasional raider. Rust lets you FAIL... and fail HARD. Like losing your entire house because a bear killed you. Work harder, work smarter. Find a way to use the system as it is. You are not going to be the master of the game your first run through.
I absolutely love the idea that a successful raid on my base may end in me no longer owning it. It baffles me as to why such a large population of people who are playing a game that is supposed to be brutal and raw would be so up in arms over the idea that security is fleeting and you need to work to protect what you have.
I am sorry, but there are other ways to protect your house. Things you can easily do to make it a reasonably low risk to your self and your home when you venture out. Not to mention what has been said time and time again: This is alpha. There will be more game mechanics to come that will balance this out.
One thing i'd like to point out is that the idea of multiple keys is really moot. the purpose of multiple doors in legacy was because people could easily blow your door off the hinge. It became a staple to lock everything tight. Now, with the fully upgraded walls be extremely hard to break down, it doesn't make sense to have multiple locks. Your biggest danger at the moment is your key. In fact having multiple keys is probably a better security feature because if you had 1 key that unlocked all your doors, if you lose it they get access to everything.
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Have Garry or the developers indicated that explosives won't be coming back, because I haven't seen that. Once it's back, then the defensive strategies for defending against it would likely be the same are similar.
In another post, though, I do make the point that people are making a bigger deal about this than it is. Once tier 2 and better locks are available, that's what you'll use. I expect the tier 1 locks will be like wooden doors and shelters in legacy -- something you use temporarily while gathering nearby. Once you have materials to upgrade, you can do that and then start making your base bigger.
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Built any locks from scratch recently?
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At first i was like "oh fuck they ruined everything !!!" But now i'm more like.. " meh it make sense ". I'm fine with the current key system.. they just need to do some tweaks. I also hope garry add some sort of evolution to keys that at higher lvl's you go digital lvl. I kinda like the idea of unlocking new tiers of evolution as you explore,build,learn and study. It will make servers much more nicer and will require people to actually work together in order to trade stuff,blueprints or even conquering somenthing.
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garry confirmed weeks ago that there will be additional tech levels for locks, including legacy-style keycode locks. Metal keys and locks are the most basic tier.
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No matter how many times we say it, nobody seems to listen, lol.
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Having one entrance to your house is a good way to tempt someone to throw up a level 6 wall in front of your door.
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Hate the keys. The whole system is just painfully clunky.
But hey, wanna bet the first serious experimental mod is to fix the lock system? xD
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I agree that the current system of keys isn't well done, it could change. Ideally, I would prefer other locking options. Like in my actual house, I require a key for the front door, inside or outside, if it is locked I need a key to get in or out. Now for other doors inside the house, like the bathroom, they lock from the inside only. I would like the option to have inside only locks for internal doors, though for ease of use you would need the option to choose which side of the door you want it on.
To clarify, I would still like the front door to be key only (obviously would change with different tier of lock), but internal doors, I would like a one side lock option, this would drastically cut down on keys needed, while at the same time keeping you safe, it also has the added fact that you can't lock internal doors when leaving, since they are locked from the opposite side. So if someone has your key from killing you earlier and you are out, they can still gain entry to everything, but if you are home and have locked the internal doors, they would still need to break the other doors down.
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Someone posted a bit ago about the idea of being able to lock your door from the inside with a wood plank that goes across the door to hold it shut (only from the inside). It would cost only wood, or hell maybe even come with the door itself and once you add a key-lock it gets replaced. I think this should be the T1 lock system instead of the keys. Like the poster of that comment, I have also been killed while waiting for the metal fragments to cook in the furnace to make an actual key-lock. It would be nice to have some a way of keeping people out of your freshly built home while you are inside waiting for the metal fragments to cook. It could also be a way to not have to make keys for every door inside your house, since you can lock them from the inside with the wooden plank.
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Indeed, this would be ideal and it isn't over the top or anything silly.
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The question no one is asking.......
Where are these locks coming from ? just about all the other building stuff you could make in the real world.
Foundations walls etc. But make a a deadbolt ? that's beyond making without a lathe and drill press at the minimum. :) now if there were old buildings like in legacy... sure there would be locks on doors that you could pilfer to use on your own building, they would also be likely to be keyed alike or master keyed which removes having a different key for each door :) swipe cards and keypads require power to run !!! if your generator runs out of fuel or stops for some reason your doors could be left unlocked.... or you could be left with no way to open door because the power is out.
Barring the doors with timber from inside makes more sense for internal doors and should be stronger than a mechanical/electronic lock.
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actually the more i think about it, the more suitable internal bars might be. you have to leave your house open when you run around unless you have someone to stay in and keep the place locked. it encourages team play, and prevents you from getting locked in. no longer requires a key.
definitely agree with latches for tier1, but could possibly expand to tiers 2 and 3.
my system goes tier 1 latch, tier 2 key lock, tier 3 combination lock though, so who knows what they will decide;)
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My initial post got removed for some reason?... maybe my opinion is too much for the mods? Maybe my post was a multiple and they wanted all posts about the key system here. Eitherway, I feel i make some points no one else has brought up here.
Keys ruin this game right now, as they go against both social and PvP interaction.
- When a player is camping outside your base, you can no longer run out the door like a madman with an axe and fight him to the death, as if you lose, it's GAME OVER. Sitting around waiting for him to go away is boring for the both of you.
- Sharing bases with friends with more than 2 players or 2 doors is a complete and utter headache, and sooner or later one of you will get hit, and once again, GAME OVER. Which makes the game anti-social due to everyone being drawn to build their own base, as its not worth the risk sharing. Rust is not half as fun alone.
- The intense, enjoyable overnight clan wars from legacy version are over, as once one heroic risk taking player dies the other team can access your whole base, and not only get in, but lock doors open etc. 6 people spend 5 hours building a base, only to be lost in seconds, by a new spawn with a rock that's not done a days grind in his life. Now he's the owner of a 6 bed apartment. Not realistic and completely unbalanced.
- A good rust player, aggressive SoS or not, is against grieving, he is not an a**ehole, nor a cheat. These keys are pretty much promoting grieving, they represent a thought trail that says it's OK to end someone elses game completely by using un-balanced methods. No one enjoyed having their doors replaced or walled off in Rust Legacy, any good admin would rule it as "grieving" and most would remove it for you.
I am still yet you read a post that actually gives a strong argument FOR keys, and an intelligent explanation as to how they currently improve the game. Allot of people calling it's more "realistic", yet I don't see them complaining about getting wolf meat from a deer etc. etc. As someone has previously mentioned, realism is always welcomed, but not if it takes a toll on fun, progress and success.
Regarding Garry's posts on reddit, I completely disagree.
Of course "my base" should be "my base", that is one of the sole reasons people play Rust. People build their own little space in the world, they will then go on to protect it from the rooftops, build onto it, invite their new and old friends to it, hoard masses of materials, and make it more secure. This is an important part of the long game that people don't want to lose. It's very hard to design games that people will continue to play for hours/months/years on end. More time spent in-game the more rewarding for all parties, yet this new feature makes the game more of an arcade machine as most players won't last longer than 90 mins, GAME OVER, shut down, and go back to playing COD or Destiny.
Facepunch - I truly love your work with Rust. But my opinion... If you want to keep people playing and continue to pass the good word to their friends while this game is in development, please put efforts into bringing back the door codes immediately, and when the time comes for a progression/leveling security system, implement it once you've worked out a balanced method. (I am not against this at all, it sounds great once balanced.)
Disclaimer: Obviously, just like you, I know it is in development, I am just speaking for the inpatient among us.
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I absolutely voted yes on this subject.
This may not be what Garry wants to hear, but this game would THRIVE GREATLY with a doorshare system and/or a group system.
Doorshare is a huge plus over making keys for everyone and making copies so you dont get locked out of your own home.
Group system that allows us to create a "faction" for example, and upon creating a door lock, you may choose to have the door openable by "only you" or "faction."
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That is your opinion. A lot of people have said similar, but I personally think it enhances PvP and tohers aggree.
Sure you can. Leave your key and go. If you intend on dying you will just spawn in your base! If you win, just suicide and BOOM! in your base.
This may be your experience, but the system is new. you will figure it out. Plus once the upgrades come this issue will be mitigated. Your poor base design is the real issue.
If it was so easy to lose, isn't it easy to take back?
This again sounds like your poor base design being the culprit in how you lost your base.
This is again your opinion. I enjoyed taking people's bases in Legacy. I enjoy it now. I personally felt it was the sign of a bad admin to not allow people to take bases.
It's not a question of realism. The issue here is your opinion conflicting with the direction of the game. You think the base you built should be yours simply because you built it. But Rust lets you fail, and fail hard. Like losing your base. Game over. Press respawn and try again. Find a better way to protect your base. It improves the game because it opens the door for a new level of failure. It forces you to rethink how you play the game, and how to survive.
If that isn't fun to you, then maybe you are playing the wrong game?
There are many other games in this same genre that will be "base defender 2014" for you. That is not what this is.
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physical keys and locks suck IMO. however, if they aren't going anywhere, they should at least be implemented as such:
Doors should have an "inside" and an "outside". This should be determined by which side the lock is installed on. whichever side of the door the lock is applied to should be considered the inside. clicking on the inside of a door allows you to open or close the door regardless of whether it is locked or you have a key. right clicking the inside of the door gives you an option to lock or unlock the door. right clicking the inside of the door allows you to create a new key for the door. right clicking the inside of the door allows you to replace the lock on the door should you have an unused lock in your inventory.
the outside of the door only has open and close functions. if the door is locked, you can not open the door from the outside unless you have a key.
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Click this
next to your own post to look at your event log. You will see that your thread was closed for being yet another thread about keys when there are many.
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It doesnt and would never enhance pvp at all.
How can it if I'd never take the key outside? All that would happen is the key would be left in the main base and it would be a case of suiciding to get back in.
Infront of the main base would be a series of other locked doors, the last of which would be taken outside. To get back into the main base, suicide. If you die, all they get is entry to the first room which contains nothing. If youre out looting, you bring the stuff back and put it in a box thats inside the first room then suicide to the main base and move the stuff from the first room to the main base.
0 risk, 0 danger, 0 improvement, 100 pita.
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On the issue of not being able to defend your base without risking your key, there are ways to deal with it assuming you actually think about the problem and what is available to you, rather than expecting an ez mode solution to be spoon fed to you
My solution is to keep a hidden sleeping bag and stash of armor/guns outside near to my base. If people are knocking on my door i stash my stuff, suicide outside, gear up and mow them down. Works like a charm and the only thing i risk is a couple of guns/some ammo. I am likely to gain more than i risk losing. I keep multiple stashes such as this near my house and none have been found. It works. I have a method of hiding things that is very effective.
I only worked out this method because keys are what they are. They forced me to do this if i want to be able to defend a house without being at risk of losing it. This is the type of emergent gameplay that makes the game interesting. People just aren't very good at it and would often prefer to have their problem solved for them. I like the challenge of fixing it myself
P.S. I realize suiciding outside a base is a turnoff for many people, and not very elegant. I totally agree. My solution is one that enables me to solve the problem in alpha rust, because what i have to deal with the problem is very limited. In the future i expect many more tools will be available, as will different lock/security measures. Hence it will likely not be required.
I am merely using the example to make my point that if the energy spent requesting changes to systems you don't enjoy was used to devise a way around it the problem may not seem so bad after all.
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People have been using suicide to get in and out of bases for a long time. But the fact that suicide bases are possible and/or using suicide in some fashion is the best alternative to maintain security... that's a design flaw. Not something to build a game around.
The system is half developed. Sensible suggestions like one-way doors, door-barring or key-burying functionality would help bring the security system closer to usability. What tricks we've discovered to "game" the system in the unfinished experimental build is a bit less relevant in the long run, don't you think?
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Yes, agreed. Hence the P.S. part of my post. If i had to use this tactic in the "finished" game i would be disappointed.
To clarify i wasn't arguing against people providing legitimate suggestions to improve systems.
There are a lot of straight up knee jerk whine posts that add nothing, and clearly demonstrate the poster has not thought at all about the issue and is just reacting to in game frustration that may be purely due to a mistake or oversight on their part, and not a system flaw
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Couldn't agree more. Suicide travel seems to be many peoples solution to the Key lock system.
Why they think that is preferable to a properly functioning lock system is beyond me :)
Edited:
There are workarounds for all (most) problems. But when it gets to the stage where key elements of the game come down to 'Beating the system' you've got to start thinking that maybe its the system that should change.
I played about 500 hours on Legacy Rust, and knew probably every exploit & loophole there was to know - but this was essentially what made me stop playing until recently when experimental was more playable.
I'd much rather spend my time playing the game the way its meant to be played rather than waste most of my time playing the exploit game.
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agree with this.
are people actually arguing that it is preferable to need to suicide travel? i certainly wouldn't, it's a silly mechanic. I did it to be able to dick around in Alpha and kill two guys who kept hounding me. Never did it in legacy. And am certainly looking forward to better ways to manage security being introduced so it becomes obsolete.
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Easter Rust Woohoo
Its no longer about base fights or raids its about who can find my keys! While it is understandable that a tier key system is coming, this should never have been a long term thing(longer than a month) , the system does not work it is flawed and very broken. Lets take a look at the "Hardcore perspective" You now spend more time trying to hide the stupid thing in some clever place no one would find it, ooo this is so exciting.
Going out to collect resources: Leave house quickly lock it, now run to hiding spot hide key go out and collect stuff return to hiding spot go home unlock relock, drop off stuff. How on earth can this be a fun mechanic this is so tedious and boring. it ads an extra layer of not actually playing.
I suppose to the guy who doesn't want to work it makes perfectly good sense, you have to just look for these idiots.
Bugs: Find house with high foundation build foundation next to it and get squashed into other foundation raid house and get key to exit , job done.
find house with window drop sleeping bag inside, kill, respawn, bam raided get key and exit.
How is this fun? we now wait for people to log off or we wait for people to make a mistake, the opportunist rat will live like a king, so why should anyone put in any effort? We should all just shit around and wait for the one noob who decides to try and build something
WE WAIT! Have we become so inundated with freemium mobile games where we wait for things to happen?
lets really be redundant and give us a combination lock box to store our key in.
worrying about a key so early on makes me less inclined to test other features, its like the building aspect has taken a back seat.
but we have more important shit to worry about like grievers blocking your doorway with a level 6 wall, bcs they cant find your key.
Dumb x 2
Agree x 2
Funny x 1
Informative x 1
Artistic x 1
Zing x 1
Optimistic x 1
Winner x 1