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Post #1I. The Proposal
Rust is going through a massive reboot, many things that I previously thought could never be implemented, such as procedural generation of maps, has become reality opening up the doors for many new possibilities. One mechanic that has a lot of potential is the creation of makeshift firearms. Currently, at least in the default branch of the game, the system is very simple. You have a pre-designed weapon that you made from scratch, all you need is the designated materials.
There is one big problem with this, if you are rummaging, hoping, desperately searching for anything that could piece together something worthy of defending yourself with, how do you come up with the exact same result as someone else? What makes these weapons "homemade" or "makeshift" if there is such an obvious standard among them. No offense, but it seems like a cheap way of executing such an opportunity. Now, not to discredit the dev team, they have done a fantastic job in creating these weapons, and the detail and quality is great, although there is so much more potential.
II. How it could be improved
The old system would be replaced ideally by one which allows you to craft your own personal weapon, piece by piece. Although I am no game developer, I have a general idea for the details of such a system. When beginning work on the gun, you would choose the potential size of it, a large, medium or small chassis. You will then choose the firing mechanism following with the ammunition type. Ammunition types could even be expanded upon to include chemical sprays, scrap metal ammunition, or even flamethrowers, although this would clearly only be the icing on the cake.
Once the basics are covered, you can switch out parts, such as the stock, magazine, barrel, and sight. Each part can be individually painted or perhaps even display a team insignia. Let's say we have 3 chassis, 3 firing mechanisms, 3 ammunition types for each, and 5 different parts for each slot (stock, magazine, etc.), you already have over 500 possibilities. Not to mention paint and possibly insignias. Thats a lot better than a shotgun, a rifle, a couple pistols, and a launcher. The process of crafting your own weapons will be more time-consuming (as many agree it should be) but more rewarding than ever.
Here is a link, to a more detailed idea of how this could work: http://http://i.imgur.com/eQRmQou.png Credit to JasonChang55 thanks!
III. The Result
If such a system were to be implemented, not only would it add more depth to the game, but it will also distinguish Rust from other survival games. Such a feature would be a great selling point and I believe Facepunch is the right studio for the job, with some fantastic artists and employees, as well as Garry pushing the team and Rust to meet the potential.
In game, this feature would add excitement to finding a gun, and cut down on your stockpile of 20 pipe shotguns. It would give each gun a role. As well as give you a sense of ownership over your creation. Not only this, but the issue of modern day weapons could be controlled by letting these weapons age and deteriorate, to the point where when you find them, only certain parts can be salvaged (which you could add to your makeshift weapons). This means a modern weapon can still exist, but cannot be crafted, and would require multiples of such weapon to be found in order to use it completely and properly.
Thanks for reading guys! Don't forget to let your voice be heard. Vote in the poll and comment below with your own personal take on the subject. The more support and polish this idea gets, the greater the chance Facepunch listens.
View Poll Results: How about now?
- Voters
- 50. You may not vote on this poll
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Great!
46 92.00% -
Terrible!
3 6.00% -
Still not there yet
1 2.00%
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It might also give players a more careful consideration of their resource usage, since creating individual parts to piece together a rudimentary firearm will not only take time, but also some planning has to be involved in the process. At the same time, more freedom in crafting is given to the player. Might also level the playing field in terms of combat, since almost no firearm will be the same. I really do like this system, good job OP.
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Thanks for the support! My general idea behind that is that each parts can be made out of different materials. Although some may be superior, it may be the smarter move to make your stock out of wood, instead of metal (this could include different types of metal as well), for the time being.
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And perhaps the type of materials chosen for construction can affect the rate of decay or durability of the firearm? That wooden stock you chose is susceptible to breaking much more easily than a metal one.
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Exactly what i was thinking. Make the player think "Do I really need this shiny stock right now? Or should I make some decent armor? Perhaps a shelter would be best?". They should have to weigh the pros and the cons.
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No. I don't mean to troll or be a dick but this is a terrible idea. Do u know what happens when u mismatch various pieces of guns together? It won't work or it will blow up in your hand. And anyway this will be to hard to cafe making a 100 percent custom gun for everyone
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That isn't the idea, we aren't taking a rifle and putting shotgun shells in it. We are equipping a long barrel versus a short barrel, a large magazine versus a smaller one, a folding stock versus a pistol grip. Not of this involves the firing mechanism, which is determined from the start. You decide at the beginning, will this fire slugs, rifle ammunition, or explosives, then move in from there. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough if so than that is my fault.
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Let's also not use the realism argument to defeat gameplay enhancements. Games are inherently unreal, they're games, special activities with set rules above and beyond the laws of physics.
Realistically, playing Tag is just an exercise in invading the personal space of others, and there's no reason to run away from the person who is "it". But that's the whole point of the game of Tag and why it's fun.
Fun and balance should come ahead of realism when building a game mechanic, unless you are dedicated entirely to realism and are willing to make the game very hard and inconvenient to play along the way.
P.S. Grats on 1000 posts, Munoz.
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That is a good point and one I often forget myself, people should tone down a little, let the game bend the rules, its not like it would be turning it away from realism, because it was never there. While I feel this should be grounded in reality, it shouldn't imitate it, and at the least maybe players unsure whether it is fact or fiction. But hey thanks so much! I appreciate the help you've lent me along the way.Let's also not use the realism argument to defeat gameplay enhancements. Games are inherently unreal, they're games, special activities with set rules above and beyond the laws of physics.
Realistically, playing Tag is just an exercise in invading the personal space of others, and there's no reason to run away from the person who is "it". But that's the whole point of the game of Tag and why it's fun.
Fun and balance should come ahead of realism when building a game mechanic, unless you are dedicated entirely to realism and are willing to make the game very hard and inconvenient to play along the way.
P.S. Grats on 1000 posts, Munoz.
Oh also, if you get the chance, i would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.
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I could see an economy beginning to form if you had looted/crafted gun parts have variable/semi-random stat bonuses (internal math more than numbers exposed to the player) tied to their type. A silencer crafted or scavenged in the Rust world is probably not going to be perfectly as effective as another one found on the other side of the map in a once-sealed box -- one of them is probably going to be noticeably less efficient than the other.
I don't want it to turn into a Diablo/Borderlands loot slot machine game, where the point is to grind (or cheat) until you get something in top 5% of the stats range and then protect that piece with your RL life until you get a replacement that's even better and 5% minmaxed, mind you. The bonuses/penalties shouldn't be too far away from the normal values, and I think the stats should be communicated in vague terms to players, like "Rusty pistol grip" versus "Well-crafted iron pistol grip".
I think weapons should degrade over time, although I'm not sure whether I would want them to be repairable; I'd like to see repairs being a somewhat costly or difficult endeavour in order to keep new weapons going into players' hands, but not so stiff that it's not worth it except for with server-clearing stat-outlier god guns.
One option for balance is to make weapon construction a one-way affair -- once a pistol is assembled, you can't get that really nice barrel back off of it to use on another weapon. Alternatively, a more gentle version would be to degrade the quality of the part by 10% or something when it is detatched and swapped (representing the use you've presumably put it through shooting naked bald guys), to still keep the replacement cycle rolling. If weapons are build-once, repairing should be a reasonably straightforward affair (craft the gun and X metal scraps together, or whatever, I don't care about needing a forge and metal castings around), but you should have diminishing returns, where the weapon's never quite as good as it was when it was new. At first, you only lose maybe 2% of the internal stats and the gun seems completely the same when repaired, but after you hit the 10% mark, the model changes a bit and the stats are noticeably worse; aim is a wider spread, slightly less damage, reloading is a bit slower, maybe with an actual animation of having to hit the clip with the butt of your palm to make it go in (
). And so the degradation and diminishing returns on repairs continues, getting more severe as the gun gets below the 50% durability mark and is basically in need of replacement.
I mention all this because being able to perfectly disassemble a weapon and recover all of the parts freely will likely lead to min-maxing best weapons being the only way to win a fight, and that's the kind of dominant strategy I imagine garry does not want to actively encourage in Rust. It happens right now on the old build with who's got the most kevlar/M4/C4/hacks, but that's why experimental is a new start with the lessons learned and concepts refined in the old build.
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Definitely some good points, worthy of mentions in the OP for sure, if I ever make another version I will be sure to mention these ideas because it solves many potential issues with the system. I didn't even think of the potential for an economy forming around this but it definitely seems possible. Perhaps the non craft-able gun parts should remain at a constant number, so players can't loot farm. Just an idea but this suggestion can definitely be fleshed out some more, thanks for the feedback man! always a pleasureI could see an economy beginning to form if you had looted/crafted gun parts have variable/semi-random stat bonuses (internal math more than numbers exposed to the player) tied to their type. A silencer crafted or scavenged in the Rust world is probably not going to be perfectly as effective as another one found on the other side of the map in a once-sealed box -- one of them is probably going to be noticeably less efficient than the other.
I don't want it to turn into a Diablo/Borderlands loot slot machine game, where the point is to grind (or cheat) until you get something in top 5% of the stats range and then protect that piece with your RL life until you get a replacement that's even better and 5% minmaxed, mind you. The bonuses/penalties shouldn't be too far away from the normal values, and I think the stats should be communicated in vague terms to players, like "Rusty pistol grip" versus "Well-crafted iron pistol grip".
I think weapons should degrade over time, although I'm not sure whether I would want them to be repairable; I'd like to see repairs being a somewhat costly or difficult endeavour in order to keep new weapons going into players' hands, but not so stiff that it's not worth it except for with server-clearing stat-outlier god guns.
One option for balance is to make weapon construction a one-way affair -- once a pistol is assembled, you can't get that really nice barrel back off of it to use on another weapon. Alternatively, a more gentle version would be to degrade the quality of the part by 10% or something when it is detatched and swapped (representing the use you've presumably put it through shooting naked bald guys), to still keep the replacement cycle rolling. If weapons are build-once, repairing should be a reasonably straightforward affair (craft the gun and X metal scraps together, or whatever, I don't care about needing a forge and metal castings around), but you should have diminishing returns, where the weapon's never quite as good as it was when it was new. At first, you only lose maybe 2% of the internal stats and the gun seems completely the same when repaired, but after you hit the 10% mark, the model changes a bit and the stats are noticeably worse; aim is a wider spread, slightly less damage, reloading is a bit slower, maybe with an actual animation of having to hit the clip with the butt of your palm to make it go in (). And so the degradation and diminishing returns on repairs continues, getting more severe as the gun gets below the 50% durability mark and is basically in need of replacement.
I mention all this because being able to perfectly disassemble a weapon and recover all of the parts freely will likely lead to min-maxing best weapons being the only way to win a fight, and that's the kind of dominant strategy I imagine garry does not want to actively encourage in Rust. It happens right now on the old build with who's got the most kevlar/M4/C4/hacks, but that's why experimental is a new start with the lessons learned and concepts refined in the old build.
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Well that's why only certain pieces would be included for certain ammo types. It wouldn't ever be ideal to have a clip designed for 5.56 bullets hold shotgun shells, so the ability to use them in a shotgun would be denied, and a 5.56 Receiver wouldn't be ideal for shotgun shells either, so you wouldn't be allowed to combine them.
Also this gives me an idea.
Perhaps you could purposefully "booby trap" the gun. Maybe take a 5.56 rifle, and slap in a clip of shotgun shells, or jam stones inside, and when someone tries to shoot it, KABLOOEY! Gun blows up, and you get damaged.
The only way to avoid this is "examining" the gun. Do this by holding the reload key, and it would display the ammo inside the gun and other info. EX: I hold R and my guy pulls out the clip and it lists the amount in the clip, who owned it, what they named it, how many kills they got with it, it's condition, etc.
Perhaps a picture would be more useful....
So if a gun was in working order and everything it could look like this:
http://i.imgur.com/YwH9Fwo.png
But if someone tampered with it, it could look like:
http://i.imgur.com/g46lbGO.png
Edited:
oh and also Daniel, you kinda screwed up the imgur link to my diagram. you have http// and it needs to be http:// , this causes the link to not work. if you edited the post and fixed it Im sure it would help people who aren't so troubleshooting wise.
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Sounds massively over-complicated to me... but then I've been up since 4am traveling with work and I'm not in the best mood ;)
I wonder how many of these custom guns would ever see the light of day, rather than being stashed in people's bases?
And I wonder how many would end up in the hands of KOS'ers the second they do get taken out on an excursion?
I like the idea of guns having to be assembled from different parts. That's a great idea. I'm less keen on making custom weapons because I don't think it would contribute much to gameplay in return for all the development time it would take to implement.
But meh. Maybe I'm just grumpy and tired.
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i could see this working, but it would have to be a simplified system. for example have 3 variants of each the..
stock- reduced recoil = slower equip speed
mechanism- higher rate of fire = reduced accuracy
clip- higher ammo count = slower reload
barrel- maybe just pistol, rifle and shotgun barrels.
dunno, just snowballing.
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Too complicated of a system I think. It will definitely scare away a good number of casuals and sounds quite tedious.
The whole realism vs. Fun thing is the issue. How real can u make it without things getting so frustratingly complicated you say "fuck it" and go play CS or call of duty.
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I love the idea of booby trapping guns like that. Could backfire on yourself if you forgot about it, or your teammates if you forgot and left it in community storage. I think that is exactly the type of "emergent" gameplay Garry is after.
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Definitely could be cool, perhaps have combinations that can backfire would be a good addition.
Edited:
This is only my opinion but, what is so complicated? I mean. Clicking a few buttons and actually enabling players to strategically craft weapons is not an overcomplicated tedious system in my opinion. This has already been done in dead space, ghost recon and even Loadout. That game is very "casual" and yet people seem to adore that system. Of course this is just my opinion but, its been in a "casual" game, used by "casual" players, and i just feel like Rust is the perfect game for such a system.
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Workbench>Create>weapon>small chassis. Craft. -4 LQM.
Handgun receiver. 9mm. -5 LQM.
Slide for semi fire. normal barrel. 2 LQM.
standard handgun clip (2). -2 LQM.
You basically craft a blueprint, then it tells you what you need to make it, then you combine the material with the blueprint at a workbench and BOOM, handgun (or rather, goes the bullet).
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Exactly, simple and sweet for the player with a great payoff. Although I do agree that if implemented there is a danger of things becoming too overcomplicated or trivial.
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Edit: Nvm
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I would love this system. I liked the similar system of Loadout, though it took me awhile to create a sniper rifle that could 1 hit kill with a headshot.
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I skipped over all but the op... :p
I carry irl, I want primitive stuff. Bows and slingshots, nothing else. Metal or wood slingshot...rocks to metal shards...
I don't want guns so disagree with all gun stuffs :)
On the slingshots and bows...I can unload flaming ammo as well...perhaps one day even poison? Hmm
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Although I feel like that is the uniqueness of rust, a blend between old and new, where modern day humans are thrown into the wild, no longer able to depend on the luxeries of today. Modern tech and a modern setting should stay, that in my opinion makes rust awesome, besides some really good mechanics and a solid team.
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This should all be implemented in some fashion. The mechanic that is. Whether its a gun or a stick with a pointy end.
If the website "add-item" to game thing works out there should be servers for everyone's taste.
Couple examples of how it would work. A berry you pick is poisonous, it is a "consumable" and "ammo". Someone uploads a design for spear that holds "ammo". Insert berry as ammo.
A little simplified, but thats the idea. (animations by Facepunch:)
or...
All the parts of a gun are created and uploaded. Someone just has to spend the time making/animating them.
Then gun parts x-z are needed to make (a) gun. The gun is a finished model with all the animations and whatever stats (decay even) the maker (modder) put into it.
But again, Im with Atomic, I would play with sticks, stones, and a bow.
i.e. if facepunch made a sword swinging animation, we could all have light-sabers pretty easily. You could have a starwars server, or a DOOM (boom) server where the server owner only allowed certain items in game. Every crazy out there can get the game they want.
(question to ask... will you allow us to change the hand rigging in the future?)
May have been mentioned before, but in the inventory menu next to the view of yourself have a "pose" selection. Hands up, pointing, waiving your arms (white flag :), fetal position behind a rock. Activated by a click or a key.
Created an account just for that rant. have a good one!
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It would be strange, in my opinion, to have this system for anything that is not a firearm. Simply due to the lack of options, I mean with a gun you have a variety of parts with strong functions and a strong array of variations. People have complained about this suggestion claiming it was too complicated, and I'm sure many would agree if this system expanded to all weapons. Perhaps they could just be separate items, since i imagine the amount of variations would be so low? Anyways thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it
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Going to copy and paste my suggestion for a "Geographic Weapon Variation" system
With the Rust team beginning to develop procedural map generation, its becoming more evident that the players of Rust are really getting into the whole concept of "regional variations" for things such as animals, clothing, and otherwise. All though simple in practice, this would diversify the game world to include things such as certain animal breeds only being found in certain regions, certain agricultural practices being used in certain areas, and certain types of clothes being required to survive in certain areas.
These type of ideas have been thrown around back and forth, but one thing I have not seen being discussed is the question of how exactly a bunch of "survivalist" know how to build the same exact weapons. Yes, it's a question of weapon-porn, but it's also a question of goofy-realism that has major effects to the play of the game.
In order to give an idea of how such a concept would work, I'd like to start off with a weapon currently in the game... The bolt action rifle.
This weapon has been a source of debate in part to it's amazing uses in combat, but I am not here regarding that specifically. I would like to ask everyone to imagine how every person in a survivalist situation would be able to make the same exact rifle without any form of deviation. This does not even occur in real life! In South America, their is hundreds, if not thousands of city to regional variations of the Luty(and other) Machine Pistol.
Luty built to specifications by PA Luty
Bastard Luty in South America
Regional variation of the Luty, known locally as "The Blimp"
Regional variation of the Luty which adopts a less complicated design.
All these firearms have the same blow-back operation used by the Luty, but thanks to resource restrictions, different gunsmiths, and simple modifications for ease of manufacture, they all have different looks and appeals. Another thing to note: All these firearms are from Brazil.
This type of thing gets me giddy and happy, but it also brings an interesting point to the table regarding Rust... Why shouldn't weapons in Rust have regional variations or different looks depending on the region? Let's go back to the Bolt Action Rifle for a second... In one of the recent videos by the Rust dev team, it was shown that the procedural map generation might start including things like deserts, arctic areas, and massive forests. It could be suggested that these areas all have different resources available to the player, and as such, different variations of weapons.
If a player was only capable of getting cactus bones for the wood stock of their Bolt Action Rifle, it should actually show that. The rifle should have a different look which is unique to weapons built with different types of wood, metal ores, and otherwise. If the Rust team were to develop a system in which the player would be capable of mix n' mashing different wood stocks, using metal ores from different regions, or just having different types of gun powder, it would give a far more interesting survival game, and it would create a unique situation for players to learn and play with. It wouldn't be any major differences, but players would have weapons with different stocks, different metal colors, different ironsights... ect.
It is just to diversify the game, and give new ways of playing the game.
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Im sure that the first version of this post came BEFORE that post, and I even made a post regarding a similar idea where weapons were tiers, but bottom line more options for guns.
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For me this is where the gun element of Rust should be, but it should be a simple system.
A home made gun should be difficult to make in game, and military grade stuff very rare and by air drops only IMO.
This would bring the focus back into early game survival, and therefore an expansion on melee weapons would be good, clubs, knives, hammers the list goes on. And why can't we throw hatchets?
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I believe they are working on making items throwable, I saw it somewhere but I forget, perhaps it was on one of their trello pages. But I definitely agree, with this the early survival will need to be expanded upon as well, no reinvention, just more options.
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I also think guns should be more endgame-ish, Things like crossbows, bows, swords, axes and shields would be the things you first make. Just an idea, this would obviously need some more fleshing out.
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Aye. The concept of having variations for the same weapon is something that would make Rust a much more enjoyable game to play.
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+1
This idea kicks ass and I truly hope the Devs listen to it and implement it.
Kudos on an awesome idea.
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Thanks man! If you have any ideas on possibly improving it, let me know.
Edited:
I'm sure both ideas could co-exist.
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Fuck it. Chainsaw machine guns.
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Could actually be done. Most people aim for the concept of using an actual chainsaw, but if you were to use an electric handsaw with a rock cutting blade, it'd work perfectly for cutting flesh and bone.
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Chainsaws would be cool, although i feel anything that complicated should require the parts to be built individually first, like guns, unless it is a loot only weapon
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bayonets. or something. Hand crank? I think that's too impractical.
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I usually, never bump, especially my own posts, but I am very passionate about this idea. The more feedback the better and hey maybe facepunch will take notice.
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So leave some feedback it goes a long way!
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Thats an amazing idea bro!!! fully agree!
Also, I think that having a Crossbow including to the bow would be freaking cool.
Beyond that, customizing Bows&Crossbows with modern attachments would be outstanding :D
AND FOR LAST, ROCKS SLINGSHOT ^_____________^
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