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Post #41
I don't even care what the argument in this thread is about.
Calling someone else's post "trolling" simply because you don't agree with it is childish and completely illogical.
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Some of you guys are idiots. Alpha is a stage of development nothing more nothing less. If a Dev says his game is in an alpha stage of development then thats the bottom fucking line.
Just cause it runs smoother then other alphas, has a lot of features already and you have more fun on it then a released game does not mean that its still not an "ALPHA development level project.
Saying that alpha is something thats falling back on or that they are not allowed to call it that or complaining about a game being behind schedule when there is NO PRINTED schedule ANYWHERE that I can find about when the game should be where in development and when is just beyond moronic.
I mean my God the level of entitlement on some of these new comers to facepunch is just fucking astonishing.
And the fact that some of you ignorantly try to say that this game is not an alpha anymore to try and justify your complaint towards facepunch that they are not moving at a speed to which you find acceptable... I mean MY GOD.
Why don't you go play some EA games that are rushed out pieces of crap that are more worried about how much money their new title brings in then having a polished game on release. Are there really that many of you that are new to online gaming that you just spout out nonsense flapping your ignorant holes to developers on a process you not only have NO IDEA about but have no part of???
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Well for an alpha staged development, its really slow compared to others. The topic is development SPEED, not its stage right this moment.
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all of this is really late. the development was super slow two months ago.
iv ranted on this topic 100 times and i know a ton of people who are quiting/taking a break from rust until things are improved.
'alpha' is a marketing scheme and a scam. notice that there are dozens of them on steam pretty much daily? this is a new trend in gaming and its really scary. facepunch has made MILLIONS of dollars on this 'alpha' game. facepunch is smart really. they can hide behind this alpha tag indefinitely and idiots defend it to the death. truth is, the game can't be called an alpha in any way shape or form. the game has been out for 8 months, and has grossed millions of dollars. and yes, that means something.
for arguments sake lets say it is an alpha game. as the OP mentions, and others including myself have mentioned, the development PACE is completely unacceptable. period. if you honestly try to defend that facepunch is doing their best on development you are a complete sucker, or 'fanboy' as you love to say Sievers.
Here are some of my biggest beefs, that demonstrate facepunch's extremely poor "development" or management if u can call it that.
-The preferred playground for hackers is OFFICIAL SERVERS. Why? Because there are literally 0 admins. Facepunch can't even hire some mouth breather 8$ an hour to simply ban the speed/jumphackers to protect their brand. As if this game doesn't have a big enough problem with hackers, which btw cheatpunch won't do a damn thing to fix, if u have faith in cheatpunch u clearly are new to internet gaming
-glitches such as bugged airdrops go unchecked or unfixed for months after a patch. meanwhile, ZERO, not ONE, comment/forum post/announcement about what they plan to do about it. You can't tell me something like that isnt a quick hotfix. if I was running the company it would be fixed the next day, or at the very least an announcement about it.
-Garry and the team unveiled the item editor like it was the greatest thing ever, not to mention they directly said that it took a ton of time and resources to make it. time that should have been spent on GAMEPLAY things such as replacements for the red animals which are blasphemous. call this one opinion but it really shows a lack of priorities. the item editor does nothing. good ideas are ignored, and even if they are accepted, they certainly wont be implemented ANY time soon as made evident by the glacial pace of every other update, hence my opinion that their resources should be spent on gameplay mechanics right now.
-absolutely zero communication between the development team and the community. period. no arguments there. trello is a absolute joke. that page hasnt changed in months, and its very passive communication. Garry seems to only open his mouth on twitter about dinosaurs and cannibalism.
its just so sad that this game has so much promise and the team is dropping the ball. but guess what guys? its ALPHA! give me a break.
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Right because updates from games like Nether, Space Engineers and DayZ are coming out super fast...
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I think "get involved with the game as it develops" is quite clear, yes. Nothing in that description actually really backs up what you are saying. Yes, it's an alpha, we get that, hence the "early access" thing. we understand that there will be issues, but alphas are supposed to be a time of major development. And yes, we are lucky to have Rust come to us, lucky that they went forward and gave it to us. But they also need to realise what comes with that, and that if they are going to try and please us, they need to meet some expectations. To be honest, a tweet a week or so from PlayRust or Garry about how development is going doesn't seem like that much to me,especially when he's posted many today about the Oculus Rift being bought by Facebook thing.Keys were free, until demand outstripped server resources (and therefore key demand) by at least 50x from idiots getting on the Reddit hype train after they made Rust go viral, primarily on the false assumption that it was built to be Minecraft+DayZ and therefore attracted the worst of both fanbases.
The devs never wanted this popularity in the first place, and even cutting off the supply of keys entirely for a whole month was doing nothing to stop the flood of new users signing up to do nothing but beg for Rust keys. The only thing they could do was begin to satisfy demand, starting with the key Dutch auctions, prior to being able to transition to a standalone exe instead of the Unity webplayer and launching on Steam.
You are not an investor. Stop saying that.
The fact that you fail to recognize a completely overhauled sky/water system, door sharing, Steam group whitelisting, a complete replacement of the UI framework, and the creation of the item editor as significant changes is why your opinion is not likely to hold very much water with the devs. They aren't new maps or building pieces for you to have fun with, but welcome to alpha. If you don't like it, go away and play games that are actually fun for six months and then check back in on how Rust is doing. I'm totally serious. You'll be happier that way. This is not a demand for you to leave the forums, however.
Anyone going to try and claim that this is unclear?
Edited:
I think "get involved with the game as it develops" is quite clear, yes. Nothing in that description actually really backs up what you are saying. Yes, it's an alpha, we get that, hence the "early access" thing. we understand that there will be issues, but alphas are supposed to be a time of major development. And yes, we are lucky to have Rust come to us, lucky that they went forward and gave it to us. But they also need to realise what comes with that, and that if they are going to try and please us, they need to meet some expectations. To be honest, a tweet a week or so from PlayRust or Garry about how development is going doesn't seem like that much to me, especially when he's posted many today about the Oculus Rift being bought by Facebook thing.Keys were free, until demand outstripped server resources (and therefore key demand) by at least 50x from idiots getting on the Reddit hype train after they made Rust go viral, primarily on the false assumption that it was built to be Minecraft+DayZ and therefore attracted the worst of both fanbases.
The devs never wanted this popularity in the first place, and even cutting off the supply of keys entirely for a whole month was doing nothing to stop the flood of new users signing up to do nothing but beg for Rust keys. The only thing they could do was begin to satisfy demand, starting with the key Dutch auctions, prior to being able to transition to a standalone exe instead of the Unity webplayer and launching on Steam.
You are not an investor. Stop saying that.
The fact that you fail to recognize a completely overhauled sky/water system, door sharing, Steam group whitelisting, a complete replacement of the UI framework, and the creation of the item editor as significant changes is why your opinion is not likely to hold very much water with the devs. They aren't new maps or building pieces for you to have fun with, but welcome to alpha. If you don't like it, go away and play games that are actually fun for six months and then check back in on how Rust is doing. I'm totally serious. You'll be happier that way. This is not a demand for you to leave the forums, however.
Anyone going to try and claim that this is unclear?
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I'm going to be uncharacteristically diplomatic and suggest that we agree on the following statements, which I hope you will find fair and lacking in the intent to insult.
1) Different members of the Rust subforum have different ideas on what constitutes "major" developments. This is in reference to patches where the actual gameplay experience of Rust from naked to kevlar is fundamentally the same, but, say, there's a new GUI and new sky, or a raft of bugfixes and graphics settings. Some consider these massive, some do not.
2) There is an argument to be made that the devs may wish to reconsider their current communication strategy, but the major difference of opinion is how to go about appropriately expressing one's opinion regarding the matter.
Those are as neutral and objective as I could phrase them. I brought them up because the two major sources of conflict these days when it comes to complaints about the devs that doesn't involve cheaters, the server files, or direct technical issues hurting fun, are people complaining that the devs are not working fast/hard enough (and the people who show up to argue with them), and people complaining that they are not keeping us informed enough on their progress (and the people who show up to argue with them). Rather than cook that up here, since you played the corresponding chess move right by the book, I'm going to cut to the end and try the quick way.
Can we agree that there are differences of opinion held by different members of the forum in the two cases above, and that it is better to consider writing with empathy for the devs than angry complaints and sweeping generalizations?
I'm not a mod, so you are genuinely free to answer however you want or not at all and there's nothing I can do about it, but I'd appreciate it tia
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Sorry to inform you but investing can also be used to describe an end return other than for financial return. For instance I invested my time and energy into getting a good education. I put $20 into an unfinished game expecting it to not sit dormant for 2 months with shitty updates. The only difference between myself an a financial investor is that I cannot withdraw my money. So you're damn right I expect a return and that return would be progression which I currently do not see. Without the $23 million where do you think this game would be? In the crapper with the rest of the games whos programmers didn't care. Games that are free to play have received more content and patches than this does. If this is how slow progress is in alpha then imagine how slow patches will be in release.
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Uh you're really exaggerating with that 2 months claim lol, unless you really consider the 6000 cheaters banned by cheatpunch a 'shitty update', or the dozens of other additions and fixes that have been made in the last month http://playrust.com/ . They're trying to expand their development team and also still working on the game, be patient.
you can read some of what they've got set up here:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2012686
http://www.facepunchstudios.com/jobs/
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How am I exaggerating with 2 months? That's when I bought the game and literally nothing groundbreaking has changed. Banned 6000 cheaters lol?? Congrats, 8000 more have joined. Lag, rubber banding, server hosts have seen no improvements since I started. We still have 3rd world countries hosting rust servers. Can you at least gives us a good host so we can test the game properly. EVERY server I have joined has rubber banding and it totally throws off the game play . I can't even count how many people I've killed with headshots because the hit box stayed in place while the server lagged.
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lol were you expecting the game to be perfected in that time or something? Don't ignore improvements just because something else isn't working right. You can't just patch away all the issues instantly. And you should really quit making up numbers about cheaters or about progress, it's really not gonna make people take you seriously. As for nothing major added, shared doors, a new anticheat system, and the durability system were added in that time, I'd call that pretty big additions. If you want more big additions, then you'll just have to be patient and wait for them. They've already stated a new content patch is coming soon.
You can read some of what they're planning here:
http://playrust.com/updateless-week/
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Really? Did you just make up 6000? How many threads are created everday over the number of hackers. Seriously, they are an on going issue, but don't worry we won't notice because we're too busy looking up at the beautiful new sky and the lovely furnace we have. I'll continue to wait patiently while zero progress gets made. What part are none of you getting that communication is seriously lacking. Shared doors LOL!!! You mean that failure passcode thing? Someone created a mod in their free time that is better than pass codes.
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Uh no lol, I didn't make it up. Stop being silly about this. ~6000 banned cheaters from cheatpunch, thousands more from VAC, and a new third anticheat being currently investigated is not zero progress: http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1369576
again, stop ignoring all improvements just because a few other issues remain. And idk why you're complaining about the sky and new furnace (while oddly enough claiming no progress is being made). Do you want the entire art team to cease all work while the programmers deal with cheaters? That'd be rather pointless.
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Oi you, quit being a baby or you're going to get banned.
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Hey Postal, I do appreciate you joining in here. And I do understand what you're saying, about progress, cheaters, and being patient.
However, the issue isn't so much the "current state", it's the progress/direction/communication. The whole "FP is the dev team in the next dorm room" (casual, swearing, don't give a f) vibe was refreshing at first,
but at some point it loses some shine and we want them to actually be a business, and feel like they A) have a plan and a direction, and can communicate it to us and B) are actually going to start fleshing this game out at a reasonable pace.
I still couldn't tell you if this is going to be a robot dinosaur game or a military herp derp. By comparison, Starbound alpha also didn't have updates super often. But you know what they did?
They posted almost every day on the front page what they had worked on that day, with pictures, videos, and a road map of where we were going and what the end product was going to look like.
Everyday I come by and still see the same post from 2 weeks ago (which was a placeholder post to begin with for "things coming soon!"), that I have a problem with.
edit: why is it people have no problem responding to shit posts, but if you make a well constructed argument, you get ignored.
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In my opinion, developers should work on anticheat system: deny noclip, speedhacks, megajumps and so on...
Becouse it's doing really bad for game reputation...Game overflowed with cheaters... No fun to play....
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By all meanings this.
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True they might be - they might be occupied with other things like new staff training, maybe they have problems with their workflow methodology that maybe decreasing their productivity. This development of rust transparency issues were discussed a lot on this forum but it is their right to make whatever they feel publicly available information. I saw some tumblr blogs that keep a keen track on every bit of information about rust might be worth exploring that - also you can try following Garry's twitter page.
Bottom line - I don't think people should get angry about lack of content and progress that much like it's the end of the world. I don't think FacePunch is interested in loosing their audience in the long run as it would mean a lot of hired people being laid off and whole company going down in flames (in other words if they wanted to run away with that much cash why hire and expand and buy all kinds of fancy anti cheat software and have plans on purchasing 3rd party middle ware e.g. that voxell engine as I recall ?).
Edited:
Paid 19 bucks/euros worth of alpha, kept raging on 100 posts - that energy put to use even for digging trenches could earned you back your money :) I honestly believe that this is like one of those people that demands closing down whole supermarket counter because the sum of whole 100 products he bought had a discrepancy of 2 cents and he demands to see the supermarket manager. Well you learned your lesson if you think Early Accesses are scams cause you just got scamed is what you saying - so best thing to do would probably not buy any more of them and do something useful...
I think I am on the BAN row after this post but...
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Helk is working of the farming system. This will take time.
The new guy Andre is working on procedural terrain/resource spawning. There are pictures of his progress every few days. Including new ones today.
Garry is working on the item manager.
Tom is working on adding new rock meshes for Andre.
Daniel is working on bear traps.
Rob is working on icons/new ui.
There is progress posted every day or two except on the weekends.
Calm down.
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i think you need to read his message again, in no way is he saying he wants rust to fail. in fact what i get from it is that he wants quite the opposite of that.
also, try working on consistency:
"If I'm a Rust fanboy, then your the anti-Rust fanboy."
"I'm proud to be a "fanboy", as you call it"
..uhhhhhhhh.........
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When you are a developer, one of the most annoying things that can happen is when someone who is not a developer wants to tell you how to suck eggs, and specifically how long it should take.
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I'm a big fan of andre, he's not bull shittin and getting work done.
Give him a good bonus please Garry.
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Who here remembers times when we were getting updates at least once a week?
Good times...
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I would really like to see a response to this. I refuse to believe you have to go berserker to get noticed on this thing.
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I totally agree with OP,
These are my thoughts.
I have 500+ hours up, also own my own server.. love the game... But the total lack of updates is just getting beyond a joke.
For the last month I have been telling myself, just another week and there will be something of substance. But no, there is absolutely nothing...
I know the game is in alpha, but you are still buying something that is being developed. In my opinion the ball has been dropped and a shoddily scrambled list of apparent bug fixes will not suffice this time as an "update".
This big update they promised all of us when they removed zombies...was made about 2 months ago. And still nothing.
The game is seeming to be getting worse.. foundation glitches, airdrops (still not working)... its getting so stale..
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THIS!!!!!
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THIS!!!!!
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THIS!!!!!
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Patience patience patience! No one seems to read the "alpha" part in the description. The game is awesome for only being an alpha, enjoy it rather than complain it isn't updated constantly.
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You already made a thread about that post; there's no need to show us twice. We get it, you're stopping playing Rust until it gets better. Hurry up and start doing that.
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The game has been released a LONG time to be called an alpha. Last summer there were updates every week / 2 weeks and now no major content update in 2 months...
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Length of time has no bearing on what is or isn't an alpha.
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I dont think you've played the game when it was in browser version, that was an alpha game. With 700+ hours rust has got extremely boring because of no content updates and hackers in groups of 10+ ruining servers while FP / admins do nothing about.
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Still waiting. At this point I'll settle for an incoherent rebuttal from a fanboy. The fact that no one can discuss this is kind of bull shit.
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Hey. I want to propose something to you.
I propose not that you are wrong, in that you have expectations that are reasonable.
I propose that you are instead slightly ahead of the game, and perhaps a little bit misguided.
Let's leave aside the labels for development phases, because never mind if it's an alpha or a beta or a pre-alpha or a "Foundation Release" (which, apparently, means Buggy as Fuck but ready to sell on Steam with no alpha or early access warning at all, thanks to Infection: Scammy Stories), what matters is what needs to be done.
What needs to be done: Everything, but starting with foundation things like settling on a permanent UI framework, and getting a working sky and atmospheric lighting system, which in turn allows for better water and for specular reflections and other uses of the second camera (like pixellated wangs).
The UI framework had been holding back a lot of functional changes because everything would've had to have been scrapped and redone all over again when the UI was changed.
The UI has now been changed, and now new ground can be broken on new features with a reduced chance of lost time from having to throw work out and start over.
The new sky means that water can be fully overhauled and become something more than an instant-death zone. The dev blogs state that water is intended to play a much bigger role in Rust. There have been tons of threads requesting lakes and rivers and other water features on the land itself, and I suspect the devs will do at least something to that end now that the water system can be reworked with its new capabilities.
Another underappreciated change is the item editor, which now enables anyone on the dev team to add new items to Rust. Before, it had to be done by garry or Helk (I'm guessing that's who the two devs being referred to are), which put a severe bottleneck on adding and updating new content. This is, again, something that doesn't immediately translate into cool new things to do in game, but represents a system built to speed that up over the lifetime of development.
You have reasonable expectations, but you're acting like this foundation is already fairly well-laid and solid... and it isn't. So, add some extra time and patience before you start expecting the big patches to come chunking down the line. Major things are happening right now, but they're not even under the hood changes, they are changes to the thing that holds the hood itself in place.
As far as communications go, I'd argue that maybe they could be a little more verbose about their progress, but I'm fairly satisfied overall. You also have to take into account that GDC and Steam Dev Days and everything else has been going on, so that's caused lost office time due to travel. Seriously, everyone be patient. You really, really don't need to hear that garry worked out a bug in the item editor that was causing the stock market prices in Indonesia to fluctuate but only if Celine Dion was wearing a blue dress. Facepunch has better things to do with their time than keep you guys up to date in the absolute minutia of the production.
Yes, they could do it, but they don't have to.
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I bought it when it came to steam. Switching from browser to steam wouldn't be a simple process. Stills no bearing on alpha status.
They are still adding in core features. That's what makes it alpha.
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I do agree with pretty much everything you said. But that is not what my post is saying or asking for.
Boiled down to one statement it was essentially:
FP does not communicate a plan, direction or vision for what the game will be someday. This is pretty standard in alpha. (I cited an example as well).
Editing to respond to your edit:
In my opinion, they need to pick EITHER keeping us up to date and communicating at all, OR actually putting out content. If you can't put out content very fast because of all these valid reasons you stated, then you need to be talking to players.
Or start putting out, and then you don't need to talk to us as much. Pick one. This whole "we have no plan, were making this up as we go and not telling you anything" BS is for rookies.
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Do they absolutely need to this early? Yes, it'd be nice if we had an idea of what kind of lore we're looking at (if anything at all), but the devs are making a bit of an experiment at a different kind of game. Rust is designed to hinge primarily on player freedom and emergent gameplay, and the game's theme and mechanics will rotate around that.
The devs could change their mind and flip everything around, but I think they've got a fairly clear vision in mind, it's a matter of the exact shape the game will be in when we get there that is unknown.
The devs are trying to do some experiments with Rust to try and break new ground. One such example is, garry was pondering a possible way of having players be able to take blueprints in Rust and convert them into Steam inventory items for a blueprint exchange on the Community Marketplace. This would be, like trading cards, a player-run economy.
I should also point out that this was in the context of blueprints continuing to drop via the ordinary in-game ways and not the second stage of rolling out a Blueprint Store with micropayments everywhere. It would literally be a way for players to buy and sell blueprints directly to other players. Like other community items like trading cards and emoticons and backgrounds, there would be a small cut off the top for the dev and for Valve, sure, but it's still an exchange primarily between players.
This idea may not actually work out, but it's something that goes in a bit of a different direction for gaming. Depending on the exact specifics, I don't know if I'd actually want this, myself, but it's still an interesting idea to explore.
Edited:
Yeah, you're just impatient.
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And there it is. We finally got to "he's making too much sense, must resort to writing off". Thanks for the "late" rating too.
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It's true though, that's really what it all boils down to.
We're all too impatient... we all want updates and new content and better communication, but there's nothing anyone can do but wait.
Just wait, and be patient.
I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's arguments or anything, not trying to troll, not trying to fanboy it up or whatever...
I honestly believe that it's that simple. We all just need to wait. Let the devs do their thing for now, obviously raising a stink about it on the forums hasn't helped and I'm sure it will continue to not help lol.
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Thats not true at all.
Go read the story of rust/ under the plans section.
It clearly states the plan. They have been following it well.
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Are they really going to add 100 foot giants? That will improve the pve a lot
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I am not 100% sure which post you are referring to, but that 3-4 paragraphs is not a plan just because the header says 'plans'. General thoughts, maybe, most of which about the immediate future, most of which is already outdated as of 3 months ago.
"but I think they've got a fairly clear vision in mind"
I don't. I don't think they have any kind of detailed vision beyond the few things they are prototyping with at any given time. I think they HAD a vision for some really cool mechanics, and now that those are 'conceptually proven', they aren't real sure where to go. Sure, they might have some ideas here and there for some new mechanics (what to replace the red animal zombie replacements with, etc.). I think Garry even has some general guidelines for how he wants the game to evolve. He's shared some of those things -- player freedom, emergent gameplay, etc. But big vision? I don't think so. Even without it being fully shared, it would at least be felt as some kind of common thread in the features as they are developed. The helicopter didn't feel like any part of some big vision. The replacement of the zombies with red-colored versions of the animals didn't feel like that either. The addition of backpack locks which isn't used on any server I've ever played on since it was added didn't eiter.
Now having said that, there isn't anything wrong with not having that vision right now. The game can still evolve into a great game by experimenting and seeing what works and what doesn't. Some might say that could work better than setting a vision and forcing everything to fit from day one.
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