1. Post #1
    I fought the bet and the bet won.
    Dennab
    October 2012
    9,129 Posts

    SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine—They signed up one-by-one, hundreds of Russian-speaking men pledging to repel the ascendant pro-Europe uprising in Kiev from any attempt to infiltrate their city.

    They handed over their cellphone numbers for registration and divided into brigades. Commanders in fatigues inspected the assembled troops—a ragtag militia of mostly middle-aged men. Some competed to see who could assemble and disassemble a Kalashnikov the fastest.

    This is the capital of Crimea, a peninsula dominated by ethnic Russians that juts out from Ukraine's south into the Black Sea. The region is the last bastion of Ukraine largely impervious to the uprising on Kiev's Independence Square. Some ethnic Russians here, such as those who showed up to register in Simferopol on Sunday, have started forming militias as a show of strength.

    Now that the protest movement has emerged victorious—President Viktor Yanukovych has fled the capital, the opposition has control of Kiev's parliament and demonstrators have toppled statues of Lenin around the country to protest Russian influence—people here are on edge.

    "What if they come to us like they did [in other Ukrainian cities] and try to pull down our Lenin?" said Yulia Anisimova, a 30-year-old lawyer who was organizing women at Sunday's meeting into a medical brigade. "We hope that won't happen, but we want to be prepared." Echoing the Kremlin position, she said what happened last week in Kiev was a coup.

    Crimea is an example of the difficulties Ukraine faces as it looks to form a united future. The peninsula—long a summer destination for the czars—belonged to Russia until 1954, when Soviet authorities transferred the region to the then-Soviet republic of Ukraine.

    It remained part of independent Ukraine after the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991.

    Today, more than half the population of about 2 million is ethnic Russians, many of them hostile to the Ukrainian nationalists from the country's west who played a critical role in Kiev's protest movement. Even half a century later, many in neighboring Russia lament losing Crimea, which some still describe as Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev's "present" to his Ukrainian homeland. In a recent poll, more than half of Russians said they consider Crimea part of Russia.

    Anatoly Mogilyov, Crimea's prime minister and a member of Mr. Yanukovych's party, on Sunday moved to stem panic and defuse secession talk. He said he is prepared to recognize Ukraine's parliament, now controlled by the opposition, and distanced himself from Mr. Yanukovych.

    "Both the government and the opposition are guilty for what has happened," he said. "The government is guilty of taking actions that caused dissatisfaction among a large swath of the population. The opposition is guilty of allowing the extreme radicalism of certain supporters to become part of their wave of demands, which led to the tragedy that occurred."

    To ensure safety, the local government in Crimea has doubled the number of police patrolling the streets in Crimea and stepped up control over military installations, he said.

    Though some in Crimea have called for Russia to rescue them from the clutches of the opposition in Kiev, the idea of Crimea rejoining Russia or seceding divides locals, even ethnic Russians.

    "I want Crimea to be more independent," said 60-year-old doctor Vladimir Rodionov, who signed up to join the militia's medical brigade. But Mr. Rodionov, who described Kiev protesters as bandits, says he doesn't want Crimea to be ruled by President Vladimir Putin.

    The violence that exploded in Kiev late last week sent a wave of panic through Crimea. In the midst of the chaos, Vladimir Konstantinov, the regional parliament speaker and a member of Mr. Yanukovych's party, caused a stir when he suggested Crimea would secede and attempt to unite with Russia in the event of a total collapse of central power in Kiev. Crimeans lined up at ATMS to take money out of their accounts and rushed to grocery stores to stock up on staples. Many ATMS now have reduced daily withdrawal limits. Not everyone in Crimea is against the protesters. The Crimean Tatars, who account for more than 10% of the population, have been vigorous supporters of the protest movement on Kiev's Independence Square.

    As thousands in Ukraine's capital turned out to mourn the dead protesters, people in Crimea were doing the opposite. Droves of Crimeans, including local leaders, turned out in Simferopol with red flowers Saturday to mourn two riot police from the region who died in the Ukrainian capital's clashes.

    Thousands of Crimeans denounced the opposition protests and waved Russian flags in a mass meeting on Sunday in Sevastopol, the Crimean city that has been home to Russia's Black Sea fleet for centuries. They also selected a de facto mayor, even though Kiev has long appointed the city's leader.
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...776273578.html
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  2. Post #2
    Gold Member
    Zonesylvania's Avatar
    February 2012
    9,366 Posts
    So what happens if Sevastopol falls a second time?
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  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    Zenreon117's Avatar
    April 2008
    5,577 Posts
    How about we put a nice border right at the edge of people willing to kill eachother.
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  4. Post #4
    Why so Sirius?
    SIRIUS's Avatar
    April 2009
    1,831 Posts
    God damnit
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  5. Post #5
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    July 2010
    6,554 Posts
    For reference. They're all pretty much Russian there.
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  6. Post #6
    I'm halving my usage of math each week.. but, apparently I'll never be able to quit.
    Bradyns's Avatar
    October 2009
    5,831 Posts
    This had to inevitably occur.. there has been tension there since the late 80's.
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  7. Post #7
    JumpinJackFlash's Avatar
    December 2010
    2,270 Posts
    Remember kids, hands are for helping, not hurting.

    Having a bunch of people geared up and armed sends a message and makes them feel good, but once shooting starts it's very hard to stop that if emotions are high. Having a non-violent compromise take place would be beneficial, the ethnic Russians get to feel like they accomplished something with the sword rattling and everyone else can be happy a second round of fighting didn't happen.
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  8. Post #8
    soccerskyman's Avatar
    October 2009
    4,278 Posts
    Remember kids, hands are for helping, not hurting.

    Having a bunch of people geared up and armed sends a message and makes them feel good, but once shooting starts it's very hard to stop that if emotions are high. Having a non-violent compromise take place would be beneficial, the ethnic Russians get to feel like they accomplished something with the sword rattling and everyone else can be happy a second round of fighting didn't happen.
    This is a pretty black & white view on it. Compromise can very well not an option. The Ukrainian government greatly wronged its people and it should not expect any sympathy. As well as the people feeling very hateful of the Ukrainian government, anti-revolutionary tactics short of military intervention as of now would be futile. I know if I was in Ukraine fighting, I would be very strongly opposed to having a Russian stronghold in the country. I don't really know the amount of opposition, the militaristic effectiveness of the groups, size of the stronghold, ect, but from what I DO know, I think that compromise is not gonna happen.

  9. Post #9
    2014 SH Pun Award Nominee
    Awesomecaek's Avatar
    January 2009
    21,485 Posts
    How about we put a nice border right at the edge of people willing to kill eachother.
    That's what I thought. Either make two states or let the very east join Russia.
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  10. Post #10
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,608 Posts
    For reference. They're all pretty much Russian there.
    According to the article:
    Today, more than half the population of about 2 million is ethnic Russians
    And looking up the most recent census (from 2001, but I doubt it spiked that much since then), it seems to be 58% Russian. A majority sure, but not 'pretty much all'.
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  11. Post #11
    Hello Handsome
    ForgottenKane's Avatar
    February 2010
    14,019 Posts
    Not so sure about you, but 58% of one race seems quite significant. The rest is a mix of many other races rather than one.
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  12. Post #12
    Gold Member
    gudman's Avatar
    July 2005
    4,841 Posts
    That's what I thought. Either make two states or let the very east join Russia.
    Noooo fuck Crimeans, I don't want any more depressive regions hanging on my fucking neck as taxes rise. Let Kiev feed them, they're so deep in there they might as well have some more.
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  13. Post #13
    Lazzars's Avatar
    November 2012
    310 Posts
    And looking up the most recent census (from 2001, but I doubt it spiked that much since then), it seems to be 58% Russian. A majority sure, but not 'pretty much all'.
    In the city of Sevastopol that shoots up to 71%.

    Taking the Crimea as a whole, it's 60% Russian and 24% Ukrainian. It's not "pretty much all", no, but it's a huge majority.
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  14. Post #14
    Place a message on my profile stating how you feel towards me. (obligatory: scriptkiddy destroyer)
    Turing's Avatar
    March 2012
    4,451 Posts

    meanwhile in sevastopol
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  15. Post #15
    LVL FACTORY's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,635 Posts
    Tatars and russians never really liked EU anyway
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  16. Post #16
    Place a message on my profile stating how you feel towards me. (obligatory: scriptkiddy destroyer)
    Turing's Avatar
    March 2012
    4,451 Posts
    Tatars and russians never really liked EU anyway
    they really really like russia thats why

    if you would look at the video many are holding up signs saying "sevastopol is russian!!" and "putin rescue us!"
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  17. Post #17
    Gold Member
    VOSK's Avatar
    February 2008
    2,650 Posts
    Let them go to Russia? Maybe?
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  18. Post #18
    mdeceiver79's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,637 Posts
    Let them go to Russia? Maybe?
    Not sure if russia wants them, but if they did and they voted yes to do so then there still might be issues. Nobody, especially the US is going to like russia getting bigger like that.

    Would be pretty shitty for those who didn't want to do it though.

  19. Post #19
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2005
    15,081 Posts
    My ukrainian friend is really worried.

    She's ethnic russian and from Odessa, pro-EU and pro-revolution - so are her friends and family. But she left the country when it went to shit and now is really worried about the people she left back at home.

    Just because they're an ethnic minority doesn't mean they should have to worry about their future in their own country - which is Ukraine, not Russia.
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  20. Post #20
    Gold Member
    gudman's Avatar
    July 2005
    4,841 Posts
    My ukrainian friend is really worried.

    She's ethnic russian and from Odessa, pro-EU and pro-revolution - so are her friends and family. But she left the country when it went to shit and now is really worried about the people she left back at home.

    Just because they're an ethnic minority doesn't mean they should have to worry about their future in their own country - which is Ukraine, not Russia.
    Last I've heard about Odessa, the tension there became quite a bit stronger than anywhere else in the South/East of Ukraine.

    It seems to be indicative of some less than calming processes, for example, I have a distant relative living in Lviv and she's extremely worried about having to move to Kharkiv for exams in University. Seems to be two-fold, everyone's worried about each other.

  21. Post #21
    Gold Member
    VOSK's Avatar
    February 2008
    2,650 Posts
    Why are ethnic Russians afraid? There hasn't been any violence torwards them afaik, and I don't see why having more democratic freedoms would get them all up in arms.
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  22. Post #22
    Gold Member
    gudman's Avatar
    July 2005
    4,841 Posts
    Why are ethnic Russians afraid? There hasn't been any violence torwards them afaik, and I don't see why having more democratic freedoms would get them all up in arms.
    They themselves are becoming militant. They don't want to become part of EU, so those who are scared of violence and those who are pro-EU try to get out of the way. At least that's what I'm hearing.

  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2005
    15,081 Posts
    Why are ethnic Russians afraid? There hasn't been any violence torwards them afaik, and I don't see why having more democratic freedoms would get them all up in arms.
    Because your country has gone through a revolution and there is a vocal call for you to be removed from the country or don't want you part of it.

    I'm not talking about violence.
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  24. Post #24
    Gold Member
    Killergam's Avatar
    August 2005
    1,984 Posts
    Crimea should become independent, they were not always part of Ukraine.

  25. Post #25
    No such thing as overkill.
    catbarf's Avatar
    January 2007
    7,999 Posts
    Hey, remember the last time an ethnically-Russian area of a former Soviet state appealed for aid after being attacked? I really can't see this situation ending well for Ukraine.
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  26. Post #26
    Gold Member
    damnatus's Avatar
    October 2006
    5,530 Posts
    No idea why they are anti-UN though. I'd rather live in Europe than where I am today.
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  27. Post #27
    mdeceiver79's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,637 Posts
    Crimea is a pretty prosperous region compared to the western parts, losing it would be a real blow, as would losing any of the eastern territories.
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  28. Post #28
    SJW 4 lyfe
    DaysBefore's Avatar
    December 2009
    7,361 Posts
    Crimea should become independent, they were not always part of Ukraine.
    If the people of Crimea want to be independent then sure, but I'd hardly call them once being independent a good justification.

    What about Wales and Scotland? Hell, why not break down into Mercia, Wessex, East-Anglia, and Northumbria? They were all independent once. How about Essex, Kent, and Cornwall?

  29. Post #29
    RainbowStalin's Avatar
    July 2011
    6,163 Posts
    If the people of Crimea want to be independent then sure, but I'd hardly call them once being independent a good justification.

    What about Wales and Scotland? Hell, why not break down into Mercia, Wessex, East-Anglia, and Northumbria? They were all independent once. How about Essex, Kent, and Cornwall?
    There is no ethnic difference between people from essex and people from kent. We're all english just from different regions of the country. If there was a county on the border with Scotland that was made up of mostly Scottish people but the county was a part of England then that would make sense, but nothing like that exists.

  30. Post #30
    Place a message on my profile stating how you feel towards me. (obligatory: scriptkiddy destroyer)
    Turing's Avatar
    March 2012
    4,451 Posts
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  31. Post #31
    mdeceiver79's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,637 Posts
    Well if they have a base there, they know the protesters/whatever to call them now are anti-russian so they may be preparing to defend that base.

    Bah who am I kidding Crimea wants out of Ukraine and the Russians know it. Wouldn't say its a bad thing, cept for the people who don't want to be part of Russia.

  32. Post #32
    RainbowStalin's Avatar
    July 2011
    6,163 Posts
    Well if they have a base there, they know the protesters/whatever to call them now are anti-russian so they may be preparing to defend that base.

    Bah who am I kidding Crimea wants out of Ukraine and the Russians know it. Wouldn't say its a bad thing, cept for the people who don't want to be part of Russia.
    You mean most Ukrainians?

    Then again you've been supporting Yanukovych throughout this whole thing so its pretty obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

    There is no army of pro-EU protestors getting ready to storm Russian military bases.
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  33. Post #33
    strazyyy's Avatar
    September 2013
    172 Posts

    meanwhile in sevastopol
    I've been meaning to ask this for quite a while, why do Russians love the word "fascism" so much?
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  34. Post #34
    Resplendent Reenactor
    Zillamaster55's Avatar
    June 2010
    18,620 Posts
    I've been meaning to ask this for quite a while, why do Russians love the word "fascism" so much?
    Leftover of fighting the Axis during Barbarossa?

  35. Post #35
    mdeceiver79's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,637 Posts
    You mean most Ukrainians?

    Then again you've been supporting Yanukovych throughout this whole thing so its pretty obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

    There is no army of pro-EU protestors getting ready to storm Russian military bases.
    Absolutely not. I stated several times that his laws were wrong and that the protesters had the right to protest against laws which are undemocratic. Don't be a dumbass.

    60% of the crimean population is ethnically Russian, the other 40% is not wholly Ukrainian ethnicity. That is a very real majority. Most of them and the eastern territories voted for the government, some cities with as much as 90% majority. The government they voted for has been ousted violently by a group of people not the same as themselves with radically different political motives. They deserve their rights to representation as much as any other. The western regions support the opposition, the east didn't and now they are getting a government forced upon them.

    What Yanukovych did was half baked, stupid and undemocratic, what he ordered the police to do and what the police did (in shooting unarmed protesters) is criminal. But that is absolutely no reason to punish and deny the rights to the people who voted for that government. The deserve fair representation and if they feel they don't get it they have every right to defend it against those who would violently take it.

    Read it carefully before you jump to half thought out conclusions.
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  36. Post #36
    Resplendent Reenactor
    Zillamaster55's Avatar
    June 2010
    18,620 Posts
    -automerge-

  37. Post #37
    Gold Member
    gudman's Avatar
    July 2005
    4,841 Posts
    I've been meaning to ask this for quite a while, why do Russians love the word "fascism" so much?
    Symbol of everything bad that can exist. Basically, synonym for the word "evil".
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  38. Post #38
    mdeceiver79's Avatar
    March 2012
    3,637 Posts
    If they feel they will be better represented by the russian government more than the current coalition then it is their choice.

  39. Post #39
    The Duke's Avatar
    July 2013
    513 Posts
    *snip*
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  40. Post #40
    Scar's Avatar
    September 2010
    4,175 Posts
    Symbol of everything bad that can exist. Basically, synonym for the word "evil".
    How funny, considering Stalinism is basically just Red Fascism.
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