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Post #1There is a reason Rust is selling so damn well despite the bugs, the hackers, the alpha state. The same reason games like Dark Souls, Dayz, Hotline: Miami, and FTL were huge hits. You guys have tapped into a couple things severely lacking in games of the past 10-20 years. Actual challenge and fun core gameplay. Tons of gamers are sick of all the handholding, sick of the linear restricted play, the minimaps with player location (pleasssse dont add in a minimap that shows where you are, getting lost and pathfinding is an awesome feature) and arrows pointing to the next objective, pop up tips, beating a game without dying once, etc.
You are getting some complaints here and on places like reddit, but I just wanted to make sure you knew for every complainer out there you will find 10 people who love the shit out of what you have done, they are just too busy playing the game to tell you. There are dozens of games, even fairly similar games out there for people who can't handle sleepers, getting KOS just after spawning, having their base raided, having their build griefed. People who aren't used to a hardcore game take some time to adjust. Rather than learn from their mistakes, they would rather blame the dev and cry to dumb it down. The truth is rust is a harsh but fair teacher. After getting killed by a kevlar man just after spawning despite you or him saying "friendly", the game teaches you not to trust strangers. After getting killed at night lighting a torch or running a furnace in a wood shack, you learn light discipline. After getting raided five times you learn how to construct bases that aren't worth the c4 cost to blow down and where there are no available shortcuts from stairing up the outside. When your small base keeps getting raided you learn that as a lone wolf you have to get way off the beaten path, or you need to find a group to last long. Please don't change any of this. The satisfaction from learning how to play smart and survive the true enemy (not the wildlife and not the environment), far outweighs the pain of the learning curve.
So far you all have made great design decisions and I hope this continues. Please be very careful with some of the intended changes as these may make the game less fun or exciting:
Locked backpacks- I don't know why you don't want to reward the naked guy getting a kill on the kevlar. If the goal was to stop people from KOSing it will have the opposite effect, the kevlar man can afford keys/lockpicks for days. Currently trying to loot items one by one mid firefight is very exciting and dangerous, and lets the naked man live the rags-to-riches american dream, while making the kevlar man remain a little wary about roaming around all day with his best gear on. If he can just respawn and run back to pick it back up thats a problem.
Increasing the map without increasing player counts- Currently the game starts lagging with over 100 players due to structures etc, but anything less than 30 feels empty and is way too easy to gather resources and build up. If you increase the map 8-fold but only marginally increase player counts, the game will become empty.
Physical "Realism" - the realism in social dynamics (banding together to survive, clans fighting for dominance over territory, banditry) is a lot more fun than extreme realism in physical mechanics. The actiony combat in rust is quite fun. Being able to carry a lot of stuff after a kill on a kevlar or a good raid is fun, being able to run fast is fun. Dayz already exists for people who want a more "realistic" approach to these sorts of things, but a common complaint is how it is essentially short tense moments punctuated for long periods of tedium and boredom. Did anyone actually enjoy being encumbered in bethesda games?
Making C4 super rare- I haven't seen a sign you are doing this, but it is one of the most common complaints on forums by new players. C4 serves an incredibly important function in the game. It makes people feel unsafe and requires them to build smarter, more hidden, etc. It takes getting burned a few times to learn these lessons. If C4 is airdrop only or impossibly expensive, people can just build a huge wood fort and become invulnerable. Being safe means being bored. Currently it actually costs more time and resources per c4 than it does to secure a room. The builders have the advantage so long as they build smart and keep building. Making significantly harder to acquire than a safe fortress means no one can get raided and people lose the fear/danger that makes the game exciting. Granted it does not have to be c4 to fill this role. Battering rams, fire, trebuchets would be even cooler. But there has to be a way to destroy forts that costs more, but not impossibly more, than building forts.
Anti-griefing measures- I have seen information about giving players control over their area to remove pillars/doors etc. I think this is problematic, as the best part about the rust mid/late game is territorial dominance. If someone sets up a base in your "turf" you can try to force them out by taking their base over and replacing the doors, by pillaring it mid construction, etc. This sets up awesome wars between clans fighting to control resource rich areas. The game should not be set up so that whoever sets up a foundation first can basically live there forever because they can remove anyones attempts to push them out. Doors and invincible pillars are a clunky way to do this, so there should probably be something better, but the ability to force people out through superior tactics/power should still exist.
Stay strong facepunch, keep rust hardcore and fun. The core mechanics and principles are amazing, unlike any other game out there. If you wanted to add in tunneling, trebuchets, mount and blade style melee combat, replace autos with stuff like crappy Sten guns, and more general content that would be amazing, but please don't dumb the game down. This is not a competitive shooter and should not be "balanced" around making the game about fair fights between different but equally powerful weapons/gear. A clothy in bow should be able to take out a kevlar with an m4, but it should take exceptional skill on the part of the clothy, not some sort of balance where the light armor guy is faster and stealthier so its some balanced tradeoff like a scout vs a heavy in tf2 or some shit.
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Thank god not everyone who plays is a carebear
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Too long, did read. Good job ;)
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Very well thought out, kind of makes me feel like I've been missing out on these awesome things due to my real life schedule.
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I simply could not agree more with you about the locked backpacks. I hope they'll remove it again soon :)
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read everything, could not agree with you more
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Too many words.
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Why Post?
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Just finished reading it and you feel the same as me about the game and probably a hell of a lot more people. I'm glad you took the time to type this out. Very good thread!
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Email it to garry so he sees it
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Great job man, completely agreed with everything you said, you earned an agree :)
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They should seriously put this poster sized on their wall. Nothing but truth there.
The locked backpack thing scares me, so many games start great and then turn directions due to carebears crying and end up fading away .
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I agree 100%.
Well it depends. Currently on this map 50-60 folks online is enough. This is kind of survival game and not FFA DM/TDM.
True! And remove M4/MP5 and other military stuff - replace it with more post-apo weapons:)
Maybe when Rust map will be big enough. Currently a 5-10 man group with 100-200 C4 is just blowing everything they see. On my server C4 is only in ari drops and zeds. Ppl can farm C4 and use T1 nades to help them out when raiding. It's really more fun this way rather than farming resources and blowing 3/4 server buildings. Been there, seen that. Really. Anyway it should be up to server owner like me - I dislike crafting C4 so I've disabled it.
Again - host a server and allow people doing that. You will see the results in a few days. Wanna piss some1 off? Raid him. Cheap tricks like placing your own door or building 100 walls inside some1 house is not the way.
Really I'm not a carebear, been playing UO since '99 and then on SP server with hc pvp setting and later on every single open pvp game I found.
I know griefing, rezkilling and other shit is fun like hell but Rust is too young and too small to implement such things just now.
Always look at bigger picture and consider the fact that not all players are running in 10+ man zergs.
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agree
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Agree with you excpet about C4,they need to make C4 more rare or houses stronger,instead of 1-2 C4 for wooden wall,it should be always 2-3,Metal Door should be always 3,Metal wall around 3-4.
Especially in this stage where usually people who control C4 and airdrops are cheaters.
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everything you said is my exact view on the game. im blown away. Rust is the golden goose and im extremely worried about their kneejerk reactions. if rust becomes easier/more safe its all over.
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Is there a summary for this book?
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The best way to make the remove construction is only letting you remove things that you place down. Its as simple as that, I place a wrong wall I can remove it. If I take over someone's house I still can only change things that I place down. That way no one can get grief about messing with people.
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Great post! Could not have said it better myself. This game has been a huge breath of fresh air of gameplay that I have been looking for.
I have played on many different modded servers, the ones that offer teleporting, PvP off and 24 day cycle seem to be full of people that just stand there and chat, they do not play. I notice these are a lot of the people complaining for the game to be drastically changed, so they can stand and chat in the middle of a field with no worries of being killed. This to me kills the game. This is a survival game meant to bring the heart pounding as someone is shooting at you with the bolt action from within the mountains and you have no clue from which direction.
I have not read about locked backpacks and hope this is not implemented. Or if they do implement a more carebearish system, allow it through mods that the server admins can control their servers, like now. I do not want to see any of these KOS deterrents, locked bags, safezones or any of this. I like that you can kill or be killed anywhere, even in your own home while logged off.
Due to a lot of servers having bad admins and lame starter kits and going the social aspect and not survival I rented my own server. So far only a couple of us play on it but it is all hardcore and will stay that way :D
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cool, now convert the casual community so everyone in the world can start playing quake again -- competitive gamers literally just sit at their computers all day and do nothing because there's no games to play
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"Hey guys, I have the attention span of a carrot, look at me!"
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Yeah I agree, everything was good and going in a good direction, until locked back packs, I see no reason to do this or what it fixes, so I'm hoping after testing it out and some feed back it goes away, or is an option the server admins can turn off / on. It really only helps the rich. Everything else so far and everything else on the dev track looks amazing
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I pretty much agree. I dont really want locked backpacks but what can you do.
I think it should be very, very expensive to raid a house that someone has put a ton of hours into.
I also think there needs to be some sort of limited ownership of objects. Like making it so that no one can place a door on a structure for 24hrs except for the person who placed the foundation originally.
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to get it post count up thats why :P
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Nice post. I was thinking the same thing but as you said, didn't take the time to post at length like this. I agree... with all =)
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I agree, to an extent, with everything the OP has said. Don't make this a baby game. Pushing people for doing stupid things. If I die/get raided/trolled/greifed over and over I should be FORCED to learn to adapt which this game does very well. But base trolling is not something you can adapt to since anyone who's gotten a wood pile or 2 is capable of trolling a base very hard.
I played on a server that was wiped less than 5 minutes ago. Someone ran through a rad town and got a c4 and a gun. Killed a few zombies with that gun and got another c4 and ammo. Then he was able to get an airdrop since he had a very early gun and that airdrop had an airdrop smoke signal. He took that signal flare way out into the wastelands and threw it and got 3 more boxes dropped on his head with no one to fight over them because he was so far away. In his 3 airdrop boxes he got more c4, explosives, and another smoke flare. Within 1-1.5 hours of a fresh wipe he was able to craft c4, had a base, and had 8+ c4 and almost everything that he needed to craft several more from his airdrops (gunpowder, fragments, etc).
In addition i've used 2-3 c4 to raid someone and gotten enough mats to make 5 c4. When you have profitable raids like that people can snowball their c4 quantity so that groups can come up with 30+ c4 no problem.
It would take someone MUCH longer than an hour to make a base that could survive 8 c4.
In addition if you have a base that takes 30 C4 to raid then 6 people will come to it with 5 c4 and you will get raided. Coming up with 5 c4 is not that hard to do.
I agree but having your base ruined by anyone who has recently gotten a wood pile or hit a few trees is currently a bigger problem.
I hide in the mountains, save up my wood, finally I get enough for my base. I plan carefully and run out to a small area and get my friends to protect me while I build. Oh crap i hit some FPS/server lag (or just missclicked) once and now my entire base is ruined! Where is the fun or realisim in that?
I hide in the mountains, save up my wood, finally I get enough for my base. I plan carefully and run out to a small area and get my friends to protect me while I build. A naked guy with 20 wood runs up and gets a pillar down. Now my entire base is ruined. Where is the fun in that?
I finished my basement and placed a "pillar" in the wrong spot and I was able to rip it out with a hammer/crowbar and fix it. Having something like this in rust I don't feel like would damage mid/late game play that much. If you want to greif someone and exert dominance put spikes outside their doors. blow their base open with c4 and take all their stuff. kill them whenever they leave to try to build.
When my bases got trolled it was rarely a territory issue. It was always some random guy who had just hit a wood pile or a guy who was scouting the map wanting to be a jerk.
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I disagree with about 75% of the post. I agree with the no hand holding stuff. I also enjoy Dark Souls and the like. I think that anti-griefing measures are absolutely essential and vital. I think aspects that encourage team play and mutual exchanges are vital and needed. I think means of discouraging (never preventing) KOS are needed. If we want the community to do it, we need the tools to do it. There's literally no reason to be nice and helpful in this game at the moment. There's every reason to be a complete dick to random people who never did anything to you. That's total crap.
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Very well written and I see you point of veiw but...
Its hard to agree with some of this, you state it tilted towards the smart builder, I disagree the only advantage a smart builder has, is trying to build a maze or a million pillars surrounding his base to fend off rouge dicks that try to build on your base to enter, which is not REALISM in the slightest....
Right now there is no build-able defense that is impenetrable nothing a determine pile a c4 cant fix...
The game is lacking in anything to make raiding a RISK, the risk/reward is nearly 100% skewed to the attacker. If you doubt this its just because you just feel like your wasting your pile of c4...
Why not have lockable chests ( that with the right skill can be broken into ), or atleast booby trapped chest that can kill, or trap doors with spikes.... Why not make something a challenge for raiders besides whos gonna use the next c4...
You want something to drive teamwork and clans to the next level, controlling land and such why not have land claim system where none clan members cant build, and border contesting system with siege mechanics?
The minimap thing any educated gamer would google rust map and get one, so I say who cares if theres one or not... I do think theres a Serious need for a compass or atleast one you can craft...
I think the lack of a map just empowers the people that have 12 hours a day to play and memorize the game...
If you truly where a proponent of REALISM then 50% of what you do right now in the game you would get rid of...
Making a :
Gun ( metal and wood )
Kevlar ( metal and leather )
Laser ( metal with the lack of power source or optics )
Holo sight ( metal and the lack of optics )
c4 ( GP, sulfer etc )
Low grade fuel ( animal fat cloth ) WTF really I should need to build a moonshine still and a condenser or something to atleast to be making bio fuels..
You get the point Im not trying to slam or troll I just see many posts saying REALISM but the quote realism is question is always skewed to the aggressor, its never skewed to defense, as if in real life I wouldnt think of locking something or building traps to keep you out.....
just my thoughts
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I agree mostly with your post. There is however one disagreement about c4. Our group of 3 had 50 c4 in 2 days on the last server we played and once you realize like 95% of the time you can blow a wall up with one charge in the correct place and acquire more materials to make more c4 from the people you just raided it does seem to be an overpowered cycle that lead to us destroying everything as there was no reason not to. Part of the fun is having the freedom to do that, it just shouldn't be so damn easy. Half the people probably left the server because of us and we wonder why the admin kicked us out.
Now i'm not saying remove c4 or make it cost more to make as neither of these are a good solution. We need explosives in the game for the reason you stated and making it cost more to make just makes it impossible for solo players and really has little affect on the large groups. I honestly don't know how to really solve this problem.
Long story short C4 train is overpowered but I agree with your general appraisal of the games mechanics.
Make c4 -> raid -> Get more C4 resources -> Make C4 -> raid -> Get more C4 resources -> Make C4 -> ......
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I agree on 100% of that wall of text OP ;)
Post it to Garry let him know!
Edited:
this implys that every house u raid is rich in regents like this.
In my own experience I have blown up a couple of doors, only to find i wasted 4-6 c4.
Having c4 in the game keeps the fear up, even for experinced players.
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When my team (10 guys) start to play on the server, we got after 2 days min 30 c4. Its WAY too easy to get c4
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I believe hardest part of the raid should be finding the base in the first place. Once you know enemy base location it should be a technical exercise in making c4 and getting inside. If you are brave enough to build a castle in resource field you better have a crew of guards 24/7.
Sadly, we see people invest days in building a base next to a rad, get raided then leave for another server or go to forums to complain how c4 is overpowered.
if your base is seen from the road or any of the resource fields - you are doing it wrong.
Want unraidable castle - plenty of space in wilderness - you dont even need any doors. Otherwise it is a carefully hidden 1x1 bases scattered around the map.
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It is funny how many people are complaining about any balancing when they are likely going around killing all the carebears and noobs currently on all the servers. If the non-bandit lifestyle is not viable there will be nobody left for the bandits to murder except each other.
Be careful what you wish for, a game that doesn't provide a viable balance across playing styles won't be the same game you are enjoying now because none of those people will continue playing.
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It's not so much that a non-bandit lifestyle isn't viable. It's that a carefree playstyle isn't viable and failure is a learning experience few can overcome. I spend a lot of time reading stories of how this guy got raided, or that guy got fooled, or that group got the jump on a bunch of bambis just to evolve my playing habits to be prepared and avoid bandits and raiders.
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Really good post. It's rare you find a post as well thought out as this.
One thing I will mention, is that I have had issues with C4 in the past, but not because I wanted them to be more rare (although for the current way the game is, a server like that doesn't hurt). I still think the game would benefit itself if it wasn't AS (as being the key word) easy to raid. I understand that it takes resources to do so, but the game does need more ways to defend yourself (and yes, I know this has been looked into by the devs).
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found a carebear
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I like mention of traps... bewby-traps ^^ that catch a player and they bleed out, no matter how many bandages they have...
I also like secret doors, hidden compartments, and hatches to spaces or rooms below ground.
I wonder how some ideas might change the game's basic function, which so far we love the hell out of it, so I suggest traps n stuff, but kinda go hmmmm, idk
Again, top post Mr. Bowie
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I have given naked noobs chicken and wood before, but i play as a loner atm. I avoid contact. Only killed 2 guys so far and both attacked me first.
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Yeah. I do this too. It's funny how carebear = not being a complete dick to people for no reason. Rust player logic.
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