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Post #1I and my friends greatly enjoy the building process in the game.
We spend days whacking at trees and farming resource nodes to build our stuff. We have a giant house in the middle of a woods with a huge wall around the whole thing and people living in the big house in the middle and in nooks in the walls.
We have pillars everywhere, triple walls minimum to get into the main complex with about 3 more doors to get to our stashes inside that. We have done everything we conceivably can to secure our location. We are trying to establish a home and thrive, survival at it's best. Hard work for a game, to be sure.
We got raided twice yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that. etc. etc.
Sometimes we are online, sometimes we are not. We've only managed to defend against 1 of the raids, we are all fully kevlared up, until after the raid of course.
These raids usually only take like, 10 minutes. They come in, blow through our walls like they are glass, take our doors out, take what they want, and destroy the rest of our boxes with our stuff in it. It's getting VERY frustrating because it's VERY weighted in the raiders' favor.
1. They come in numbers. Knowing they are going to raid, they gather, prepare, have everyone ready and online. Our people usually aren't all online, there's no way to prepare for something like that.
2. It can happen whenever the raiders are ready and awake, which with all the different groups, is 24-7. By the time we've all texted each other and get online, they've already breached the walls, taken half our stuff, and we're logging in one at a time for them to shoot down. Not to mention the sleep deprivation from trying to be there everytime someone yells raid.
3. When you successfully raid, you get a LOT of good stuff from it. In essence you get everything that person has done, looted, raided, etc. You become that much more powerful. The person raided becomes impotent.
4. Post raid damage and base griefing. Anyone ever wake up in the morning to find you have to blow down 4 doors that aren't yours anymore?
5. Multi-Person houses. I can't put up a door for my friends who are offline, leaving their, and potentially my base totally exposed.
My suggestions:
1. Combo lock doors should be the most important thing on the list.
2. Traps and other base defenses.
3. Metal Gates, fences.
4. Another level of wall, concrete. And make other wall types harder to penetrate. Also two types of metal and wood walls, ones that you can see through, like current, and ones that you can't that take more resources to make. More solid ones should have more hit points.
5. Harder metal doors.
6. Make c4 not stack. (one inventory slot per c4)
7. Ability to put something in place that keeps walls/pillars from being placed in certain spots on your construction.
8. Allow placing of lower level construction materials on more solid pillars, ceiling, and foundation. AKA, if I make a metal foundation and two stories of metal walls, everything about that should be able to support wood. But not the other way around.
9. Light sources for the area. Torches, flaming barrels (which are already in the game, just not craftable or lootable), lanterns, etc, that can be placed for better visibility at night. (We currently use campfires, but they consume a LOT of wood, you'd think with c4 and m4s around you could come up with a more efficient light source.
10. If you destroy boxes, items inside should fall on the floor. If they can't carry it, good!
11. Hidden doors and ceiling hatches that don't show up by looking at them. How can I hide something if it's got a big white dot over it.
12. Partial walls that provide some cover while you fire over the edge of a building.
13. Uniform coloring. I hate having no idea who I'm shooting at.
14. Bars on Windows so you can shoot out! (thanks twizzm, forgot about this one)
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I think that we should wait for the hackers artifical inflation of c4 on the servers to die down before any balance changes are made. I do agree that unstackable c4 is a good thing at this point though. I don't think anyone should legitimately be carrying 80+ c4
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2 things:
1) If you don't want to get raided, don't build a huge house in the middle of a forest... makes you a wonderfully easy target to spot.
2) How do you know that half the attackers are hacking? Just because they've successfully raided you doesnt mean they were hacking.
I'm tired of everyone QQ'ing about hackers all the time. In my own server I get at least 5 steam messages a day about ppl bitching about hackers. I don't believe there are as many hackers as people think, they're just blaming them any time they die or get raided.
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6. Make c4 not stack. (one inventory slot per c4)
9. Light sources for the area. Torches, etc, that can be placed for better visibility at night.
10. If you destroy boxes, items inside should fall on the floor. If they can't carry it, good!
12. Partial walls that provide some cover while you fire over the edge of a building.
Would be awesome if at least these ones were considered. :)
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I'm not one to cry hacker just cause I get killed. I cry hacker when people one shot me in the head, repeatedly, while I'm running on the top of a 5 story building when they are outside our walls in the pitch black night.
Or when a naked guy come in, takes a full m4 magazine from two of my friends, and still kills us all (wearing Kevlar) with a pistol.
There's damn good players in the game, and I understand when they manage to take us out. We kill a few of them, they take us out. It is what it is. But the hackers are different, and VERY obvious. We've also been looted a couple times without ANY walls or doors being blown up.
As far as "don't build a huge house". Well, if we're basing this on reality, it should be a hell of a lot harder to siege a castle than burn a shack. It may not be the best way to do things currently, but that's why I'm giving suggestions. Because in reality, a huge complex should be VERY tough to raid, and if you're good enough to do it, you should reap a lot of rewards. It should certainly not be just as easy as the 2x2 next door.
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The point isn't building small, imo, it's building efficient. Smaller safehouses hidden away in rocks and hills have always been more successful for me.
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Our place is pretty well covered in the woods. It's kinda hard for me to find it sometimes. It's definitely not clearly visible
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all in all, to sum up your post/complaint you are upset about hackers, as is everyone else who has had to deal with them. You will get told the exact same thing as everyone else.
This game is in ALPHA testing, not even beta. Stuff like that is going to happen and obviously they are going to try to fix it. They are very aware that people are cheating/hacking and you can rest assured they will do what ever they can to fix it, you know why i know this? Because if they don't eliminate the cheaters then this game won't be desirable to play, if this game isn't desirable to play then they wont make any money. Their pay check is directly related to how well they develop this game. They will do their job, and we will do ours. Our job is to TEST the game and help make improvements. If you take a look at the forums you aren't the only one complaining about hackers. They know they are there, either continue to play and deal with the hackers, report them to the server admins when you know of them. Report them respectfully, don't bitch and whine about it for 5 minutes to the admin.
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OK, I'm removing everything about hackers from my original post. It's not supposed to be about hackers at all, there were only two lines that mentioned them in the whole post. It's about base defense when you can't be playing 24 hours a day, and ideas to compensate for not having your whole group online to counter the complete group of raiders that are attacking.
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In that case, I already answered your question...
Everyone has the mindset that a 20x20x60 base (exaggeration) is the only thing that will keep the 1x1x1 area of loot in the center safe.
Onion walls are awesome, but are weak in corners, multiple doors are great, but damn its so annoying to run in and out of them all...
Or, of course, you could spread your loot out around different small bases, but this can be annoying as well.
Frankly, there's no simple way to make sure that your stuff (or yourself) is safe... the fact is that you're never safe.
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People have been working on bases that you can only get into when you die that have looked very promising. It seem highly possible that, with enough tweaking to the design that you could make a raid proof base (one that someone could not get to your stuff with 1,000 c4). The only way to get it would be to spawn inside with a sleeping bag or to fly/super jump and walk through the walls or the roof. The downside is that it's much more difficult to get stuff into and require a ton of wood to build.
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Well, I don't think you should ever be totally safe. What would the fun be then?
But there should definitely be some home-turf advantage. Look at the damn Alamo, as an example. Fortifications should count for something.
My group doesn't raid a lot, but when we do, we feel bad cause it's too easy! We approach large house. We know they have 8 people who live there, but that's cool cause only one of them seems to be online right now and he doesn't know we're coming. He walks out of his house to gather or kill zombies or something... We shoot him. c4 door #1. c4 door #2. Shoot the guy again. If he's lucky he kills one of us. no problem, they can run back (or if we're really serious we drop sleeping bags outside.) keep c4ing doors. If they are prepared they have more sleeping bags in the base so we might have to take him out a few more times before we get to the loot.
We usually don't break sleeping bags, which is nicer than your average raider. We don't break boxes that we can't take. Still wind up walking away with most of what they have and we lose a few rounds of ammunition and 6-10 c4. Usually walk away with a ton more ammo though and sometimes some c4 or at least supplies to make it.
What is fair about that. If they had their whole group on they would have outnumbered us and fought us off easily.
We have about 20 people who live in our base. Some are weekenders, and most of us at least work in the daytime. Some sort of base defense system is needed. Traps or the like. At least to help slow down the raiders, or make their raiding more costly.
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Well no matter how you build I should hope that if you're trying to make it impenetrable that you are not using wood... o.O
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The biggest problem right now with the way defending works is that raiding is virtually consequence-free. The attacker has the advantage in many of the ways described above; they are all online and come in force vs. a house that may or may not even have any online occupants.
Second, even if the defenders were to kill the raiders, they get to pop back at their base and try again. If the defenders lose, sleeping bags are gone instantly and you pop in the middle of nowhere someplace.
Obviously, hacking just makes this way worse because duping ammo, armor and explosives is better than duping wood for fences.
If only there was some way that cheating could benefit "builder" types :)
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Since wood ceiling and foundations can't be destroyed by any amount of c4 the most difficult base to enter needs to be made of wood (you use wood stairs when building the base then destroy them and replace them with a pillar so no one else can build stairs into your base)
If you make the same base with metal stairs then anyone could use the stairs to walk to your doors/walls and be in your base with less than 100 c4
Wood ceilings/pillars/foundations are as strong as metal. As long as you make it so that it's impossible to put c4 on a wall it becomes the strongest wall in the game.
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It's not consequence free if it takes 20 c4 to get to your stuff....
Plus, if the raiders die, they don't necessarily always get to just try again. Remember, when you die you drop all of your stuff.... for a successful raider that usually means lost guns, ammo, and kevlar. All which now belong to whoever was being raided.
And you aren't seriously condoning cheating, are you? Just because there are some dupers doesn't mean that everyone should hop onto that train.
Edited:
You can destroy metal stairs as well....
Besides, you can keep stairs in your base and still be secure, just don't have one staircase, make many small staircases
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Metal bars for windows so we can shoot out of them. Currently windows are useless if you leave room for stairs to be built
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If you can enter your base with stairs then someone with 1,000 c4 can also enter your base with stairs.
If you can only enter your base with a sleeping bag then someone with 1,000 c4 can't enter your base.
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Why would anyone build a base that you can only get inside with a sleeping bag? Isn't that just way too much hassle? How do you get loot inside?
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I agree that it's a hassle. About as much of a hassle as having your walls blown open and all of your stuff destroyed at 3 AM while you're sleeping.
You get loot inside with a box that's hanging out of the bottom of the base. You jump on boxes/barricades and you jump and are able to put items in the box.
you build a base like that so, when someone comes along with 80 c4, they are able to do literally nothing. They can't reach your walls to c4 them.
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If base building doesn't get some sort of love in the future though, you'll wind up with a few small buildings scattered about and a bunch of guys running around with guns. Not going to be much fun if there's no larger buildings to hit. It'll get boring fast raiding small shacks cause all the builders ran away or went postal. I've already had about 5 or my crew run away in the last week, cause they saw our hard work was counting for next to nothing.
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As said a million times over, this is a survival game not a "building" game. I understand your frustration. We all do. We all have been raided and lost everything we spent hours working on. It's a difficult game. It's a niche game. It's not for everyone. I don't think the intention was ever to build elaborate palaces to store all your valuables in. Thats stuff is fun but this isn't meant to be another Minecraft. Having said that, you do have a valid point when it comes to teams and being offline. This game currently gives a huge advantage to bandits who like to team up. If you are a solo player in Rust, forget about it. Eventually someone will find your "hidden" shack in the mountains and show up in the middle of the night with 4 kevlar buddies loaded with c4. If you don't have a base with other players who login frequently, you are basically constantly starting over with a rock. I don't know what the solution is here, but it should be fun for solo players and newbs who just want to play this awesome game and feel like they are making SOME progress. 1v1 is fun. 4v4 is fun. But getting ganked constantly can get old fast.
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A solo player that has a big base is left with a rock and a big base minus a wall or three.
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Not if the raiders take over your base.
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Yeah that's true. I think it's a little to easy to build a doorway/door onto someone else's base and now you do 1 hour of work to take over 15 hours of work. Or i can go to someone who's working on building their base and drop a few pillars and now there base is ruined.
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Same happens to me too... can't start on most servers, because there's always some guys that is always just passing by to kill everyone (some even dont pick any item).
Their only objective at all is just kill everyone. And worse is that sometimes is always the same guy that comes 30 to 30 minutes to do the same over and over.
And worse are hacks cause I have seen some spawning all guns and tons of them, then spawning lot's of piles of 256 ammo for everything + tons of armor :(
And then there are also always some servers where the admin has a team of thugs and just spawn C4 for everyone and lots of guns+ammo and just clean everything away... (I consider that a cheat if some guy had an advantage over the others).
ps: C4 should have been the most RARE item in the game and must be lot more rare.
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I said this recently in another post:
Everyone assumes it takes almost no time to raid someone...
Yet no one remembers the time it takes to gather materials for guns, armor, and c4.
Not to mention the extreme crafting time for large amounts of c4.
Stop saying that it doesn't take any time to raid, because you're wrong.
Besides, they have a base too, that they took time to build.
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I have to fundamentally disagree with this. There are plenty of shooter games out there that have much better combat systems. What makes this game unique is player bases, supply gathering, and hoarding. I'm not frustrated because there is raiding, I think the full loot raiding adds that edge this game thrives on. Danger is all around. I just think there are insurmountable advantages for the raiders at the moment. The aspects and intrigues of building are all there. People devote a LOT of time to it. Building a home and securing it, making a community where people live, that is what is going to keep people coming back. Raiding wouldn't be fun if there weren't impressive places to try to raid. Building wouldn't be fun if there was never any danger to your settlement.
Edited:
It certainly takes time to raid someone. You spend a long time getting everyone suited up, getting your supplies together, coordinating with your group, forming a plan. Then execute it as quickly as possible. So how much of that time do the defenders have to do the same? Especially when they are offline.
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@Sievers808:
I agree that people use the term "Hacker" too wildly, but it really isn't a matter of building a efficient base.
As of now, C4 is too easy(In my opinion) to get even without duping or other means of cheating, once you've researched the C4 and Explosives, you're all set. They're not too expensive to make.
There are also various ways for players to exploit, they can mess with the client's files to be able to walk straight through game objects, then they don't even need C4. The fact that they can even launch the game after having done this makes me rather worried.
Either way, cheating/exploiting or not. It's still far too easy to break into houses and steal all or the majority of their stuff. Especially because you can simply smack down a foundation and some staircases, which is what pisses me off the most.
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A big part of this problem is that duping hackers have substantially increased the number of c4 on any given server. I see a hacker disconnect, kill him, and boom I have 100 c4 (i've killed someone who had 50). I didn't spend hours farming, I didn't spend hours base building. i'll spend minutes building a wood frame, metal door, and use 10 c4 taking over someone's base. and i'm left with 40 C4 to ruin everyone else's gaming experience.
Edited:
You can easily counter this with either spike walls, or put a foundation with a piller in the very middle so someone can't build stairs.
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It takes a lot of work, but a good location with foundations and center pillars spaced out around your structure can feasibly help with this. Just remember those pillars will decay after a very short time. Make sure you keep replacing them when they get lower.
That being said, instead of pre-building stairs and stuff in your inventory, it'd be nice if you had to stand there and craft them from planks after you select where you want them to be. Would make it a lot harder to scale a defended base
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Lol a lot of you responded to me at once xD
The issue seems to be this: C4 is too easy to make/get and should be balanced better.
That part I agree with, and the balancing will come with time, that's why the game is in early alpha.
However, most of you seem to be making the argument that the problem is dupers and hackers et al, which has nothing to do with balance.
No one can say for sure how well the balance actually works because of the duping issues.
Hence, I think this thread is mostly null.
Obviously hackers/cheaters/exploiters are going to get weeded out eventually, somehow. For now, let's not blame the "balance" of building vs raiding because personally I'm not convinced that this is the actual issue.
One thing at a time ppl xD
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I agree 110%! I played for about a week before the hacks were released and c4 was no easy thing to come by. I didn't feel like it was overpowered at all then.
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You may be right about the c4.
But then how do you counter the users offline issue?
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All in all, the ideas that OP has posted seems great. For now, I think that raiders and builders have a pretty good balance in all, the only time I see is where one side decides to dupe the hell out of items, whether it's to make a 100 story tower or enough C4 to break one down entirely. The exploit needs to be fixed and all, but it's in Alpha right now, they need time to work out these balances and get VAC or a better antihack/anticheat (as it doesn't seem like it's doing jack diddly shit right now).
But as I stated, OP has stated pretty neat ideas IMO. I wish they would implement something like Plot Poles from DayZ epoch to keep only people tagged as friendlies (in this case, shared with) building on that plot of land, except it should only be that set of connected foundations, instead of a 30m radius.
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Being offline isn't the raider's fault and it isn't something that I feel should require a fix.
Your base and toon is only as safe as you make it... obviously there are limits, no one can play 24/7/365 to keep their stuff safe, but even if you're online there's a fair chance you'll die trying to defend...
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My thoughts are below:
1. They come in numbers. Knowing they are going to raid, they gather, prepare, have everyone ready and online. Our people usually aren't all online, there's no way to prepare for something like that.
Traps are coming. Give it time.
3. When you successfully raid, you get a LOT of good stuff from it. In essence you get everything that person has done, looted, raided, etc. You become that much more powerful. The person raided becomes impotent.
This is how it's supposed to be.
My suggestions:
1. Combo lock doors should be the most important thing on the list.
It is.
2. Traps and other base defenses.
Coming
3. Metal Gates, fences.
4. Another level of wall, concrete. And make other wall types harder to penetrate. Also two types of metal and wood walls, ones that you can see through, like current, and ones that you can't that take more resources to make. More solid ones should have more hit points.
5. Harder metal doors.
6. Make c4 not stack. (one inventory slot per c4)
All of the above could be handled by a few things. Not stackable is a decent idea, but not an issue with 2-3 people. I think the timer needs to be longer, and maybe a delay between placing. You can throw 2-3 on a wall/door very quickly. Maybe 30-60 seconds to explode, and if you kill the person and have a "wiring kit" you can defuse it over 5-10 seconds.
7. Ability to put something in place that keeps walls/pillars from being placed in certain spots on your construction.
Agree
8. Allow placing of lower level construction materials on more solid pillars, ceiling, and foundation. AKA, if I make a metal foundation and two stories of metal walls, everything about that should be able to support wood. But not the other way around.
Agreed
9. Light sources for the area. Torches, flaming barrels (which are already in the game, just not craftable or lootable), lanterns, etc, that can be placed for better visibility at night. (We currently use campfires, but they consume a LOT of wood, you'd think with c4 and m4s around you could come up with a more efficient light source.
Electricity and fuel is coming later.
10. If you destroy boxes, items inside should fall on the floor. If they can't carry it, good!
11. Hidden doors and ceiling hatches that don't show up by looking at them. How can I hide something if it's got a big white dot over it.
I love this idea! Although, I think trap doors and stuff are coming with later updates.
12. Partial walls that provide some cover while you fire over the edge of a building.
Just use barricades with a small gap between them. Half walls would be ok though.
13. Uniform coloring. I hate having no idea who I'm shooting at.
More options are coming I am sure.
14. Bars on Windows so you can shoot out! (thanks twizzm, forgot about this one)
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Absolutely, but it should not be super easy to accomplish this. And if you do successfully raid someone's house, destroying crates should drop the objects inside which should have to be destroyed individually. (takes longer and more chance of them just leaving stuff there.)
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Whenever I raid I usually drop the stuff I do not want on the ground for it to despawn.
Dick move, I know, lol but effective.
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I just got raided while offline and my place is a rather scary one. Huge spike walls all around with 3 diffrent gates and 2 watch towers... but still the c4 wins over anything... be it huge wooden gates or small metal doors... Nothing's safe. As it was said before c4 duping is a main problem and I'm sure it will be handled asap.
But another problem right now is that, buildings aren't really "intimidating" since, while raiding,the raider knows nothing else besides them blowing down the walls, shooting and getting shot at will happen in the process. They're either succesfull or not. When traps come in, raiding should die down a bit since communities will be able to start defending their places even when they're not online.
Agree x 20
Winner x 5
Dumb x 3
Friendly x 1
Informative x 1
Disagree x 1
Zing x 2
