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Post #41was discussing this very topic today with a few people, Rust brings tears and some people can't take it, seen players killed wearing full Kevlar and using a M4 which has taken then a fair amount of time to craft - they get killed and logout - a few of my friends have quit the game because they simply can't take the hit of having to gather and craft everything again after to being killed, but some people actually love this style and you can't take it away from people. the long term answer is simple...
hosting config options.
You have the full hardcore - be killed loose all your gear, like we currently have.
Then Additional modes - Be killed loose a random Item. Old everquest styles pvp loved it!
Be killed loose nothing but spawn naked then find your gear.
Be killed loose nothing keep your gear and equipped after spawn. for the not so light hearted
That way you will have a variation of game play hosted servers that should suit peoples preferred game play.
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There is also other way to help with KOS on new spawned players.
1. Either set a limit where a new spawn who die's doesn't loose there stuff. for x amount of days
2. New spawns are safe from KOS for say 3 days. (So no one can kill a new spawn)
Untill they have a gun or so on.
Maybe have there names in green, and after 3 days red or the present colour. To show you can or can't kill them..
3. Spawn new spawns players in safe zone. Example like Eve online high sec space.
This will give the player enough time to build up and defend themselves.
Just examples as I would like to see this game progress and not be plagued with these KOS players.
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I think that if we make ammunition more valuable and harder to get then people will think twice before wasting it one some naked dude.
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Remove guns, add other weapons that don't fire simple spraying down other players. Result = Survival is still a challenge even for advanced players and new/mid game players aren't raging and have a chance to survive.
Also make offline raiding much harder.
Edited:
people can usually replenish what ammo they waste from killing low level players and taking their materials. this does not deter them.
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Implement a bounty system or some sort. Like for example killing 5 people or more you'll get alerted that someone is after you or something.
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Hello there, everyone.
This is, of course, an issue that every game with PvP and looting has had to deal with for a very long time. In reality, it's not a novel situation. Games like this in the past tend to have a niche following of very tenacious, hardcore PK and/or grief players that slowly make up more and more of the player-base until they're all that remains in the end. Either because the game itself is less exciting to non-PK's, or because the non-PK's grew unhappy with the power balance and stopped playing. I think that's something a lot of people, whether they are PvP-focused or not, will at least acknowledge.
This game and others like it differ greatly from other games that have this kind of problem in that it's a first-person game with a real-life skill factor involved in a player's success, but a lot of the same problems exist. If anything, because players are not especially limited by time-sink activities and numeric skill progression requirements, all of the factors involved in the evolution of accepted/expected PvP gameplay or PvP culture in-game that would normally take a while to settle have been exacerbated, and again the reality is that many people are ready to acknowledge that it's probably not going to end well for the community.
When I first read about the game, I was excited, and not in some happy rainbow, minecraft creative-mode kind of way. I imagined the game would sort itself out to become something like the setting of Gothic 1, but the more I read and see about it, it seems like it's sorting itself out to become Lord of the Flies: The Game. I'm not even going to say that's a bad thing necessarily, but survival isn't really the focus, and it's only the mental construct of the game's setting and description that set it apart from any other deathmatch style game.
All of that said, I think that people who really want to see this game become something great should probably agree on a couple of key points:
* For a game like this, everyone should play the same game. None of this <insert contrived mode idea here>. If soft-core looting is eventually decided to be the necessary factor in making gameplay more palatable, everyone should have to deal with that as a consequence for not figuring out how to fix the problem. No one would expect the official rules of various trading card games to require you to surrender your entire deck to the victor (or to the nearest person who grabs it first) upon losing a match, but that's what Rust currently does. Likewise, official PvE servers should probably only exist for testing purposes, their existence only serves to dilute the community, especially if collaboration-oriented players are tending to play on them. Thoughtful people cannot solve the problem of rampant PvP on individual servers if they just exclude themselves, this is what killed the PvP dynamic of many, many other games. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
* "Emergent gameplay" being a stated primary goal of the developer, I'm entirely certain that suggestions involving an otherwise unexpected consequence of arbitrarily "undesirable" behavior by players, like a bounty system, appearance changes, a reputation system that's pre-built into the game, anvils falling out of the sky to smite evil-doers, &c. aren't especially helpful. Likewise, the hand of some benevolent God shouldn't magically shoo the bullets of big, bad, PK'ing wolves away from Johnny-come-lately while he walks around with his Jimmy out, teabagging a campfire and screaming into his microphone about his boingloins. Good suggestions I've already read are things like being able to see peoples' names from further away and the like. Things that can be baked into the game to help players avoid bad situations without explicitly trying to force players to conform to a specific playstyle.
Alright, that out of the way, here's what changes I think would help the game overall. Most of them involve slowing the game down to some degree, but while still preserving the skill-based gameplay and not just turning it into a survival RPG.
* Several people have lamented the ease and power of guns, and it seems easy to me to understand why. I can't imagine that guns will exist in their current state of accessibility, but that said, I think that guns should not be craftable at all. Have you ever attempted to create a pistol? I promise you that you will not be able to create a serviceable firearm of any type with any degree of lethality within a decade, nay, your entire lifetime, if all I gave you was a big rock and left you in an inaccessible place. Even if you are an actual gunsmith. Bullets on the other hand...not quite as difficult, but still not nearly as easy as the game would let you believe. I would be fine seeing those crafted by the handful via the concerted effort of players. I'm not ready to throw up my hands and say 'no guns!' yet, but on a sliding scale from CounterStrike to Chivalry, we should probably start somewhere between Silent Hill and System Shock 2 in terms of firearm and ammo valuability and availability. Being able to kill someone quickly should probably be treasured and measured out judiciously by players. I can imagine many would avoid carrying their best weapons with them for fear of losing them to an ambush...you know, after the whole secure storage issue gets attention. TL;DR - Make guns and ammo rare, many people already think this is a good idea!
* Melee combat should feature much more prominently, but more importantly, being able to escape is probably something people don't think is viable in most games, even in games with melee combat. Someone heavily armed and armored should probably not be able to chase down someone who is naked. That in and of itself would probably tip the balance heavily away from mindless PvP and slaughtering ungeared opponents. Can't afford to waste the bullets, can't catch up while carrying and swinging around a 30lb sword or 15lb axe. This also would encourage even-level fights, since players with weapons of similar types/weights wouldn't be able to escape effectively from each other...at least, not without dropping them. In before everyone runs faster with a knife joke. As for bows and the like, well, naked guys are unencumbered right? It's harder to hit a faster target, not to mention arrows could be fairly costly. I'm sure somehow the increased run speed will end up being abused, but a naked guy shouldn't want to stand next to a guy with a sword, especially if there's a good, broad hitbox on its swing. TL;DR - Make it so people can run away from fights instead of getting an axe to the back of the head.
* Killing someone can be made a lot more difficult, and being injured could be made a lot more costly overall. As it stands, getting hurt non-lethally just costs you some bandaids and a minute to wait for the health number to tick up. Being injured from fighting, even if victorious, could come with some pretty serious debilitations. For example, in one of my favorite "survival" games, UnReal World, I successfully hunted and killed a bear, but made a mistake by repeatedly trying and missing difficult (but rewarding) head attacks and ended up getting mauled in the thigh and passing out from blood loss, among other injuries. My character, like you would expect to some degree in real life, was unable to walk for three or four days as he crawled around trying to keep himself from starving while tending to the wounds. He eventually healed, but it's those kinds of situations where you find yourself truly disadvantaged that make "survival" challenging and entertaining. This can be somewhat difficult to simulate in a first person game, but I feel it's a compelling mechanic. "Why not just die", you ask? Well, dying could be more costly than being injured, and come with the same kinds of effects. That said, you shouldn't be able to starve to death within just one game day, even if you exaggerate the effect of not eating in order to get players to pay attention to it. TL;DR - Make dying harder, make injuries more painful to get players to want to avoid fighting constantly.
Well, hope it was thought-provoking so far, I'll think about it some more and come back later.
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1. Allow furnaces, fires and workbenches to be picked up (but make them take 4-6 inventory slots)
If you want to make anything you need furnaces and a workbench, but because you cant move these objects you are forced into either making a base, or making a new one every time you move (which is not feasible because of their costs and the way resources spawn in pre determined areas)
By doing this, you allow solo's or smaller groups to keep moving, you can move into a new area at night, see there are too many people around, then move on. You wont be restricted to one location and you can feasibly get better gear without having to build a small base which is basically a homing beacon for 6+ clan raids which you will never be able to stop.
2. Make resources spawn in random locations
Developers said they are going to do this, so it wont be an issue for long, but clans and KOS people can easily dominate resource rich areas with little effort because they can tell where the best stuff is all the time. By making resources spawn all over the map smaller groups can travel out to the further reaches of the map rather than being stuck in pre determined locations.
3. Remove the 9mm, 250, MP5, M4 and shotgun
The most well designed weapons in this game are the handcannon and the pipe shotgun. Slow to reload, short range and difficult to use they make gun play interesting. Not to mention they give players a chance to run away because of these limitations.
I think the 9mm is getting replaced with a revolver similar to the handcannon and pipeshot gun in design, and the bolt action rifle being introduced was hinted by its animator as having a fully auto upgrade in the future (Maybe it will replace the M4?) so hopefully all the 'modern' guns are removed entirely.
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Really hate seeing the posts about removing the modern weapons from the game, it's just stupid, it's end game content people and this is an alpha, which means the final product is compressed into this small slice we're seeing now. In later builds I'd like to see the modern guns uncraftable and only rare loot drops from say abandoned military bases, crashed planes or choppers and would be hard as hell to acquire.
Better zombie AI and much more of them would also help to deter even the most seasoned archer loaded up with beans and chicken to fight the rads.
However if you remove these guns this early in the alpha you basically guarantee a large portion of the playerbase (clans/raiders/PvPer) are going to stop playing.
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The thing is in Rust, it's so much more profitable to go on a murder/ break-in spree than go around trading resources. You can hatchet murder a sleeping person in their home, take the 250 cloth, 1k wood, leather armor and pipe gun that they have and mow begginers down for their medpacks. Trading would mean that my rock axe will be lost for the 3 pieces of meat that I need.
In summary, Trade = I lose something, I gain something. Raiding= Pure profits (Unless M4 ambush).
Also the costs for materials for buildings are ludicrous. 10 wooden logs for 1 board! ARE YOU MAD! It should be like 1 log = 4 boards, not the other way around. That's why people go hunting for human. Its so much faster to get resources that way to make your 12ft house that needed the Amazon Rainforest chopped down to be created.
Further derailing this, make it that workbenches speed up crafting, and, when making boards, you get more of them.
Lord Fancypantaloons
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Military grade weapons should not be able to be crafted (only be loot from airdrop, or rare loot from chests), and they should decay and be expensive to maintain, so much so that it should be better to use a bow or crafted hand cannon than an m4. At the moment I find it easier to obtain military weapons than it is to craft a wooden one.
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A hierarchy of resources and tools is what makes any crafting game viable. In minecraft, I wouldn't bother killing someone who is new to the game because their stone pickaxes is worthless to me, when I have diamond pickaxes. Same thing with a stack of cobblestone or dirt. The risk just isn't worth the reward, and that sort of decision making value needs to be more obvious.
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The only reason this didnt happen earlier on irl is that injuries are harder to heal. You dont want to risk to get hurt basically... Dying ingame isnt that much of a punishment.
If you were a naked guy with a rock running through the wild west with 500 pounds of gold on you you can bet your sweet behind you werent going to survive for long.
If you looked like you had nothing of importance and wearing a gun, you would more often than not not be worth the trouble.
What they need to do is make the requirements for higher tier items require different things than say a bow.
Atm EVERYONE wants wood. So if most people see a naked guy mining wood theyll pull out the M4 and take a shortcut to profit. If they had drills or chainsaws or other more effective ways of gathering resources than naked guys with rocks, things would be different.
This is hard to do without sacrificing realism, but doable. Add say a chainsaw and redwood trees that cannot be mined effectively without "good" equip, they would give more wood, and more wood would be required to run their "tier 2 furnace" that was required to create a higher caliber steel for their M4s.
Now also contemplate making the redwood spawning sites a bit further to the east, thats pretty much unused atm. This would move a large populus of high-tier players away from the noob-friendly zones. But ofcourse you would still ALWAYS have the threat of people running around with chainsaws gutting nekkid people for funsies.
But that makes it more challanging :).
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Nothing to solve, If people want to behave that way in game, then they are allowed, same way people would act in real life.. how they want to
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It may exist a solution to satisfy everybody (hardcore pvp players & others) :
Create a kind of ladder
As you got higher rate weapons, you got more points in the ladder.
If you kill a higher rated player, you got more points.
If you kill a far lesser rated player, you lost points.
It would encourage people to fight same level players.
I know there will always some people not to play the game, but it could decrease their number and make it playable for non-hardcore players.
Also, make PNJ & wild life more challenging, to encourage PVE people to raid together.
We could see emerge different kind of factions (pve/traders, full pvp, etc...)
My 2 cents
(apologize for my english^^)
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The most times when i KOS a naked is when i see he's gathering materials, then wait till most nodes are gone, and then kill him for the materials. And when im in a good mood I just walk up to him and ask him to give me the mats else i will kill him and get the mats.
KOS is a tactic of gameplay, you dont wanna be changing that. There bad things to it aswel(like status).
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My purpose isn't to change that.
It's part of the game, and lot of people like it.
But i'm pretty sure, pvp people would quickly be bored with ganking newbies and stacking ressources,
And will quickly focus on their ladder.
Why not imagine same ladder system for factions/guilds/groups ?
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LOL stop cring ffs .. can everyone just for one second go on google or find a dictionary and search, Define 'Survival'
you'll get your answer. don't play the damn thing if you don't like the fact, its most likely how a real life survival would work.
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Thats the dumbest thing ive read in a long time. Most people greifing everyone are either the ones who sit at their computer all day (umm survival of the fittest? i doubt they are) or the 13 year old kids (who irl would be crying for their mummy).
Whats happening ingame is NOTHING like it would be irl. You will find the majority of kids are assholes, not humans in general. Though in the real world they are feeble so cant do much real harm, or wouldnt be able to in this situation. Thats why kids need parenting and why you dont let them run riot like they are doing in a game.
Anyways, rant over :).
My ideas i posted in another thread here, but it seems they belong more here.
* Remove all powerful weapons. So just leave the bow and arrows and the home made pipe weapons. Maybe add a crossbow and such.
* remove c4 completely and exchange it for less powerful home made TNT.
* If you build something no one else should be able to build in a set radius of your foundations unless you give permission by some way or another.
* Always show names!! This is a must!! And show the greifers so it at least gives you a hint as to who may be good or bad!!
I think this game would be hugely better without the modern powerful weapons. Weaker weapons will incite more building and a better community. It means killing wont be so easy and one guy with his fully auto cant take out 10 people with rocks...which happens ALL THE TIME!!
Edited:
Sorry for the double post but i had to reply to this bullshit!
PEOPLE DO NOT ACT THE SAME IN A GAME AS THEY WOULD IN REAL LIFE!!!
You have ONE life in real life, not infinite! I doubt you can fire a gun like rambo in real life too! I also doubt kids could handle firing fully autos in real life! Not everybody spawns as an equal man with equal strength and abilities in real life! I could go on....
So while yes, people will do what they could in real life, this is not representative in this game so is NOT a valid argument...
Ah no double post needed :)
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There is no logical reason in the current state of the game to kill other players. This is because the actual survival part of the game is only valid for the first few minutes it takes to kill a pig. After that, you have plenty of food to last you until you can craft a bow and then you'll never have to worry about starving as a single bear can keep you well fed for a long, long time. The optimal strategy would be for no one to kill anyone at any time, and to throw a new spawn a piece of food, as that would guarantee everyone's survival. Therefore, this notion that "we kill because it's a survival game" is nonsense. If you were an actual destitute man in some island, it would be foolish to risk your life engaging another man in combat unless you were at risk of dying from starvation.
The reason people kill each other in Rust is simply because there is nothing else to do in the game. It's only when the devs decide to make an actual survival game (and they have hinted that they intend to make the PvE far tougher) that people will realize that banding together is better than killing each other like idiots.
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To be precise melee weapons encourage talking, because people need to get close to kill you and they know it might take some hits and you might fight back. M4 and even worse snipers disencourage talking - you just pull the trigger, 100% accuracy. Bows are ok, because it takes some time in between shots although accuracy is to high for them ...
Modern weapons should be a endgame content ...
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Honestly, I think the real reason people with guns kill on sight is because they're more experienced.
At first, I was like you. I thought 'Oh, I'll help anyone I see'. I saved a few people from bears, I gave some food out. And all of the people I helped attacked me, being noobs who didn't know how easily I would kill them.
So then I started not helping. But sure enough, people still charge at you with pistols, hatchets, and even rocks, when they see you. It's pathetic really. I died once whilst typing to a naked man with a pickaxe, and from that moment on me and the people we farm with have killed everyone we see on sight. There's just no point risking it.
To the people whinging, I'd say that you don't realise how dangerous naked people can be. The rock looks like a gun from afar, and a few choice hits with the pistol even in full kevlar and you'll probably die. If there was any change I'd suggest, it would be to hold the rock in a different way 3rd person wise, because I've murdered a few people from afar in cold blood simply because I thought they had a pistol.
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...and this is why they should add randomized penis sizes in the game. A lot more realistic.
No but in all honesty mate a lot of people people (i hope?) play this game as they would act in real life, or at least close to. I think thats the reason it seems theyve tried to make the game realistic?
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No no, i dont think your understanding me correctly. Im talking specifically about the greiffers, the people that just go round killing people. Mainly because they have an overpowered weapon and everyone else has a rock.
Would they really go running in like rambo killing every one in sight in real life?? If they would then someone needs to get round their house and lock them up before they do!! seriously!
I do understand some of the KOS mentality, but i think its a little too extreme in its current state. If you walked up to a kid, in this situation in real life do you really think they would kill you? Its easy to do in a game because you have no comebacks, its all make believe. Your concience is easily forgotten. Thats why other limitations need to be put in place.
Dayz are going the right way about it. They say ingame human life is not as exspensive, its infinite unlike real life, so you would act accordingly. To tackle this theyve added/adding certain measures. Something which i think needs to happen here. Unless the devs dont plan on going down that route, which is something i would like to find out.
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Agreed. Firearms seems pretty unsuitable in such BC setting and nature survival. Bow is well enough for zombies and bears. But using automatic guns for hunting - very unrealistic. I carry and used firearm only against murders.
Futhermore, no guns - no DayZism, no KoSes.
And such paradigm still leave possibility for "coward assassination", but more smart than typically dumb shoot em up
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Which is why we invented police/military.
If one could get a crew to keep the peace, one would be able to get paid for protection. All this is made possible within the game. Work on your community and create something awesome with the means that has been given to you.
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Well, unfortunately i have to work to pay the bills. So i guess i cant play this game. Maybe they should plaster that on the steam page, stop other people wasting their money :).
Though seriously, its bloody hard work keeping a police force and lawful system ect. It would be even more hard work for a game to do that. Its hard enough finding players that are on the same time as you every time.
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Which is why we have more than one police officer in real life too.
Dude they work too. They work 8 hours a day on average and they can keep a city secure. We have like 50 buildings to secure, it shouldnt be THAT impossible.
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lol, but that is their job??
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They perform a task to get a reward. And youre trying to survive in a place filled with 13 year olds with M4s. You wont survive (get your reward) without performing a task (defending yourself/maybe others).
I really cant see how this comparison is so hard to understand? Do you want to be 100% safe at all times? Isnt that like playing a survival horror game with God Mode on?
Then maybe PVE/No sleep is for you.
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I think the Patrol Helicopter will engage bandits for killing everyone on sight...
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not 100% of the time, but maybe 10% of the time wouldnt be bad! You are missing my point completely.
I dont mind KOS to a certain extent, its part of the parcel. I dont mind pvp (thats one of the reasons i bought the game) what i do mind is the abuse that comes with it. Which is supplied by the current mechanics of the game.
Once thats sorted, through the things i mentioned earlier, that will then bring down the majority of KOS anyway.
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Why do Carebears always have to ruin PvP games? Do you not have enough casual games you can go mindlessly build with no threats? Do you really need to destroy this game too?
Can those of us who love PvP get just a little love for once please?
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I have the solution to this threads problem . . . Uninstall the game.
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nice essay
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That's why we make it harder/more expensive to craft so they will lose more valuable resources than they gain from killing lower level players.
Agree x 1
Late x 1
Winner x 1
Dumb x 4
Disagree x 1
Funny x 1
