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Post #1As with many survival games such as DayZ we see a lot of players who eventually get enough equipment and weapons then run around dominating most other players (generally those who don't even have clothes yet). Then they will endlessly just kill people for little to no reason, mostly just because they can. It's essentially a survival game until they get guns, then it becomes a free for all FPS.
The big question is why? I think it's usually a combination of the mentality of the player, and a lack of creativity. I am not saying that as a bad thing, but not everyone understands how to play a game with guns like it's not Call of Duty. It's a different type of game with a different type of mindset, but when someone gets a gun in their hands they revert to what they know from over a decade of gaming, which is to use it to kill as many people as you can.
I feel if we can come up with some sort of creative solution to fix the problem without limiting the players freedom of choice by in some way encouraging the player to behave a certain way that would be in their best benefit. If we could find a way to encourage players to assess a situation before opening fire, or at the very least talking to the person to see what they have, where they are going, and if they are even a threat.
This is only a game, but realisticly, people probably wouldn't go on free for all killing sprees just because they can in a survival situation. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions I would like to hear them. Maybe we could help devise some sort of solution to this age old problem. The game is still in development and we may be able to help influence some mechanics to help bring down the number of random killings
The game League of Legends had a terrible community not long ago (still does to a certain extent) and they came up with a system that encouraged people to stop being assholes. If you were friendly people can award you points and you would get a ribbon over your name after some time. This lead to players striving to be nice to one another so that they could be distinguished from the commmon asshole players. This is just a starting idea there may be much better ones that I can't come up with. Please share any ideas.
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People are bastards.
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this has been a thing since like there was 25 players at peak, you cant solve it
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No! We're solving it! I had run a large MC server for a while that became an international one. Everything was perfect about the game, and it was very popular, but there was one thing that ruined it. It is this very same problem right here. Survival games have so much potential and if we can just figure out this one problem we can make a lot more progress with making survival games just that more fun.
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You just stated your own problem, "survival". People will do whatever it takes to survive and thrive, even if it means killing new spawns. That's how survival works.
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In the extremely early days of Rust, when you were killed you didn't drop your inventory - no one KoSed unless they were being a dick.
Later on, they made it so you could lose your inventory (it'd be dropped on the ground and lootable).
It's a pretty simple connection to draw: killing other players is just way more lucrative than not killing other players. They can have tons of resources on them and weapons that you could use instantly instead of having to go out and farm them. Given how easy it is to kill other players (how easily you can stash arrows, ammo, etc), it's also just so easy to be tempted to spend some rounds on killing players.
What else are you going to use bullets for? Zombies are hardly a threat and are going to be removed, and the wildlife also isn't very threatening.
In short: You get a whole ton of stuff to kill things, and the only big threat in the game is other players. Resources (mostly animals and rock) are also limited to a small area, so it's hard for people not to fight over them.
Edited:
Honestly, if there was a solution it would have been found by now, so I'll go out on a limb and say there isn't one.
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I got killed today by a nude guy getting chased by a zombie shouting "friendly" over voice-chat. I killed the zombie with my shotty, and as I was looting him he shot me in the head point blank with a pistol.
Lesson learned.
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-merge failed-
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My solution, and I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, remove guns all together. What will be the point of them once zombies are removed, especially in PvE oriented servers? Keep bows and stuff, but instead of guns make it more medieval style weaponry. Swords, maces, flails, axes, etc. Hell they've already stated that every game doesn't need zombies, well every game doesn't need guns. Once a player has a gun in their hands they feel powerful, and it gets to them. Like you said, most players feel that, once they have this kind of weaponry, that they can just go around killing everyone. Many new players, including myself, can't even play the game because of this. I feel the "Attack first ask questions later" mindset would vanish almost entirely once the ability to just walk up behind someone and shoot them is gone. Guns require no skill to wield and thus anyone and everyone can use them effectively.
Melee weapons, on the other hand, require a bit more skill to wield. Sure, you can still walk up behind someone and start beating them over the head, but you have to do it up close, where they can hear you. Anyway, that's just my solution. I feel the guns in this game are a major flaw that mars an otherwise beautiful game. Not every survival based game needs guns, this could be the game that proves it.
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Haha. Well me and a couple of friends have successfully started a neighborhood with two friendly clans. We're working together to provide protection for the fresh spawns with exceptions for those who've attacked us. It's a lot more enjoyable playing as friendly, patrolling the community and helping those in need. Perhaps you should try it? :)
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Doesn't need solving IMO. The danger from other players is why I played DayZ, and why I bought Rust.
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Hmm the more I am thinking about it, I do see the appeal.
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This is what I do on my server. Unfortunately, our numbers are too thin to catch all of the bandits. We do out best to repair the damages that people suffered though!
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Lemons nailed it on the head.
Killing players is too much profit.. Do you allow other players to simply come in and take the resources or do you kill them.
The other thing is getting the drop on people. First shot is often the best shot. Example is what cellcore said.
If there was a way to identify people further off by name, instead of getting way too close.. then that might assist with this 'problem'.
Otherwise once you hit end game, what other challenges are there besides players?
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Me and my friends do this. Then when we feel like raiding, we raid the big clans/KOS clans.
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There are only two ways to help alleviate KOS:
1) Make weapons/ammo more scarce. Right now you can log on as a fresh spawn on a server and have a weapon and ammo in less than an hour. You can have an M4 in probably the same amount of time if you get lucky or know what you're doing. This doesn't solve the problem for players who have so much stuff built up, because they will still run around dominating players, but as of now it's still too easy to obtain weapons.
2) Spread the resources out more. You have a hugely vast map where roughly only 50% of it is used. The far west/northwest and northern sections of hacker valley/northeast sections of the map are rarely used or built upon because no resources spawn there. You have such high traffic and player combat areas because you spawn in resource locations and are forced to stay in specific sections of the map to gather resources.
No one is going to stop KOS'ing until it is easier to obtain resources another way. Right now, you can walk upon a guy who is wearing clothes, kill him, and have a good chance of acquiring more useful things. And if you don't, there is a high probability of him doing the same to you; kill or be killed. It discourages players, without a vast amount of time to invest in Rust, to play the game (which is the goal of an early access alpha test, to get players to test your game).
I'm not advocating for people complaining about KOS'ing, but spreading out resources or adding more would be highly beneficial for this game. (And I know the Dev's are working on another map/layout I believe).
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Maybe making AI (Zombies and such) more of a threat. It wont solve the problem indefinitely but it may at least make it less of an occurrence.
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I think we need to :
1. Spread people out more so you can get set up without instantly being smashed in the face
2. Make guns way harder to obtain and maintain (m4's etc)
3. Make resources for mid/high end players acquired differently than low end players (different resource nodes that require better tools to extract from) - this way low end player loot is absolutely useless to mid/high end players
4. (Maybe) require some kind of lock picking tool to open a backpack which is one time use, and make the backpack just not require that tool after 5 minutes - this way players wouldn't open peoples loot if they were newspawns
How do those ideas sound?
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I was walking around in full leather once, with my m4 out. Walked up to a naked guy who was jumping ( Showing he is friendly ) talked to him over voice "How are you" "Need some food" "Saw any bandits" that kinda stuff. I gave him a 9mm gun and 20 bullets since I had a crate full of guns back home. I dropped it. Then I recieved 5 shots from a pistol in the back of my head, then there were 2 voices laughing on the voice chat.... I was so mad pissed... But yea. That is the thing. Either play Rust/DayZ/Minecraft or watch The Walking Dead or any othe apocalypse movie, people kill TO GET YOUR STUFF cause they want it/they need it.
Edited:
I got really interested in the "Lock backpack" idea. If Rust could use a lockpick system like in fallout 3/NV that would be really awesome in my opinion. With lockpicks being as rare as explosive charges and making it absoloutely hard to lockpick, that would be really fun and stuff...
These should already be added in the game. They are needed Imo :/
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those ideas sound awesome, the ease of modern guns and kevlar are what takes away from this game. personally I think stuff like M4s and mp5s should be super super rare, but they honestly just dont belong in this game at all and are completely out of place. but if they MUST stay they need to be so rare that just the sound of automatic fire either scares the shit out of people and they run for the hills, or instead the players that are already built up will then seek out the source of the automatic fire and fight over it like people do the air drops now.
the only part of this game that sucks is the army of maxed out m4'd kevlars that are everywhere, its not fun being them or fighting them and even after a server wipe it takes like 1.5 hours for that situation to return.
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1 - Spreading out resources will work better. At the moment there are places where nothing spawns, so why build there.
2 - Making them harder to obtain means certain people will get to end game quicker (as always), but then they will make it even harder for the noobs to get there. Putting a bigger gap between new and vets. I like the idea of maintenance for guns, with a possibility of decay/breaking. Then again I am more inclined in taking out the guns and going more for xbows, melee weapons, etc etc.
3 - Will this just widen the gap between new and vets again? If people can use resources that a new can harvest, no matter how slowly they do it.. people will still kill them to save themselves time or .. because they can.
4 - Depends how much it takes to craft a lockpick. If it costs 5 metal fragments, then it is probably still worth killing someone who has potentially 100+ wood, 10+ metal ore.
Off Topic: Would really love to see guns thrown out completely (as stated above) and then crude swords, xbows, longbow, short bows, etc etc made.
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Honestly, there is nothing wrong with the way the game is setup right now. (with the exception of a few gameplay elements and bug fixes). The players should be a threat. It is supposed to be a survival game and that just makes it that much more interesting when playing. Human players provide a sense of danger or help and you are on your own to figure out whether or not you can trust someone within the game. I like that element. It forces you to think outside the box and approach every scenario cautiously.
Now I am not saying that there shouldn't be an option to satisfy what you want though. If you don't like the fact that any human player can kill you than there should be an option to turn off Friendly Fire for a hosted server game in the settings. Changing the games design to force players to not kill eachother is not the right approach as this hinders the experience for a lot of people. This should be left up to whoever is hosting the server if they want to allow player damage or not.
1) That just might be a good idea to have in general. Being spawned close to an enemy is not fun in any game.
2) I was actually thinking about that. Like obtaining blue prints which will allow you to build certain items. I find it a little weird that you know how to build all these guns and items just because you have the materials. Wouldn't it be better if you had to acquire the knowledge first before you can build complex items? I don't know what do you think?
3) This wouldn't prevent people from killing anyone anyway. You can't really tell who is a low level player from a high level player until you kill them and see their loot. (at least to my knowledge)
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In my opinion, this is the epitome of realism. Humans are assholes when no society is around to keep them in line, so I say, don't solve this, because this isn't even a problem.
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I agree to a certain extent. If humanity was truly 100% like how Rust is being played right now, we would not of accomplished the things we have accomplished as humans.
We basically started like this, minus zombies and future weapons. But 9 out of 10 people weren't running around murdering everything that moved for fun or to take their stuff.
Humans banded together to survive and thrive. Especially when you throw in the element of a common danger, zombies in this instance. But the zombies are basically just kind of there currently not really posing a threat. So the only threat currently are other players.
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oh yeah me and my buddies are always going out into the forest nude and bashing some trees till we walk out with silenced m4s with laser sights and wearing full kevlar gear... so real!
if this really is a survival game it should be more like the scene in predator where hes making a bunch of ghetto traps covered in mud to outwit and kill and less like a bad counterstrike in the forest as it is right now. the rest of the game feels fresh and fun but the gun play in this game is terribad and makes everything else feel pointless.
the actual cool ideas like the home made shotgun I still have NEVER seen used by ANYONE at all... m4s, mp5s and kevlar should be removed entirely in my opinion they dont fit the feel of the game and they require no skill to use especially seeing that most of the time they are used on nakeds and not actual targets.
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You do realize that most groups aren't actually setting out looking for noobs? In all the groups I've been in we're looking for equally equipped players who we can PvP with. It's mostly just because naked people come running up to groups and make their selves an easy target.
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I just switched to a server that has a slightly better ruleset , I don't mind PVP and dying but losing all your crap when logged out no tnx
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Unfortunately this is the price you pay for playing Survival games, it really sucks but you just have to:
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I really would like to have a dog as a partner, who tells me, if someone is in proximity
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At first thought I'd say that this is as much of a "problem" as having to kill wild animals to get food, cloth, etc. and chopping wood piles to get wood, but it's not as simple as that. While these activities roughly simulate reality, the pvp element does not. Firstly, you respawn, so the motive to form alliances and keeping a good name is not relavent to your survival, and second being that it is a game, the moral question is removed. The motive to cooperate, or to display any form of compassion is lost because its "just a game" - you are not actually having to think about the larger question of humanity surviving through whatever catastrophe has taken place. So yes, this is a problem, and it's one whereby the solution is not a matter of making it more realistic.
Edited:
1. A double edged sword that does you over as the server population fluctuates. The current play area is huge when pop hits 10. A solution.may be cross-server play (everything but your base) so people don't get stranded in an empty area of an unpopulated server.
2. May worsten the current situation of one or two clans dominating a server, depending on how it's done. If its a resource quantity thing, it will suck, but if its a craft time and complexity thing, it might not.
3. Great idea (and something I assumed would be done at some point anyway) - more involved crafting process and difficult to acquire resources for more specialised equipment.
4. Good idea, get people to move on and leave the stuff, or hang around and defend it.
I have to say, I doubt any of these will change the KOS situation, but they will certainly make for more interesting gameplay.
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kill them first
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I bought this game for the exact reason of killing people and looting them.
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No it's not. People would band together unlike most do in rust. I mean a team of 2 doesn't need anymore numbers so they're less likely to accept you into their clan.
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1) Can't really see a downside to this one. Sure there'll always be an unlucky spawn here and there but sounds good.
2) So long as there are are couple more interim weapons/gear that are still somewhat effective I'd like to see it. It'll also mean that higher end players will have more power over newer players though. Maybe also reduce, quite a lot, the chance of the weapon crates in rad zones giving weapons... particularly of higher grades.
3) I like the idea of better grade tools to extract and create higher grade materials and items. If a larger quantity of those nodes are in different areas of the map from the more basic ones used to create your starting equipment (but can still be found everywhere), it might encourage people to move along and out of certain areas once they've hit a point of development in game giving room for newer players to join, expand and learn whilst battling with similarly geared people.
4) Not too sure on this one... unless there are multiple types of packs?... that you can gear your character with. Another craftable item? ;) If you did want to use a lockpick method you could perhaps also have another option to 'break into' which just takes time to perform which could make it a little harder for people to loot backpacks in the middle of combat. Not sure if it is an easily programmed thing but a speedier way could also be to just hack/shoot at the pack to open it at the chance of destroying items within? Risk v Reward thing.
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I think all the automatic rifles need to be removed. Only bolt action and semiautomatic weapons should be in game along with shotguns. kind of hard to go on a killing spree when you have a slower rate of fire.
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I can see #4 if implented would cause alot of backpack camping. Kill the guy and wait for him to come back then kill him again, Repeat and Rinse till the person leaves the server.
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I only kill players who are armed, if I see a naked new spawn gathering materials I will just leave him alone, if they try to approach me I will shoot them once and they usually run off.
Besides there's only so much surviving you can do until it gets boring then resorting to PvP.
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Simple guide on how to deal with it!
Step 1 - Shoot them first.. If you're naked and die because you got no gun, get over it it's just a new spawn point, you never had anything on you anyway.
Deal with it.
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I am sure there is a simple way to encourage players to not kill someone just because they are there. I think the future removal of modern weapons will help to make this more of a survival game than it is now.
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