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Post #1
*DISCLAIMER* Thread title was changed by a mod or dev. The original thread title was "Hacking Needs to be Addressed Before Anything Else...". Please keep that in mind when reading this post and this thread.
Garry, and whoever else is involved in the development... you have GOT to fix the hacking problem now before you go any further with development. Just look at the hacking thread and how long it is with guys no-clipping, flying, jumping, teleporting, etc. Videos, screenshots... everything is posted there by a community that stands behind you. Now act. Get rid of these people. Ban them, and keep doing it. Hire more admins to ban them and work through a report system... hell I'd be willing to help you out (for FREE even).
I haven't been a big victim of it. I did have someone no-clip through our base today in full cloth, grab a couple M-4's, all of my sulfur, 400+ chicken, and some other stuff. None of my doors were compromised (over 20 of them). Nothing is exposed and open. I could hear the person run up, jump or teleport to the roof, then they clipped through to a top floor and grabbed gear. They went downstairs through walls and did the same thing.
I don't mind much. It wasn't much lost. I actually had most of the good stuff on me at the time. But it's a MAJOR problem that defeats the purpose of testing. I'm in a TS right now listening to a bunch of hackers going through walls into a number of buildings. It's apparently being recorded so I'm sure that video will go up. But this is absurd.
You're working on sleep logging, which will DESTROY the servers. They'll no-clip through and kill everyone who is "sleeping". That ABSOLUTELY can not be implemented yet.
Please... get the hacking resolved now before Steam or anything else. I GUARANTEE that this game will turn into the next War Z if the hacking is not fixed. That single handedly ruined that game. They waited too long to get a system in place (eventually Punkbuster... the same thing we were screaming for up front) and everyone quit.
I can tell you, regardless of whether my voice means anything, that I wont stick around if the hacking isn't resolved.
I get the phases of development. I get the time table and what's required of patience. But more and more people are being added to this game everyday and the fight is being lost to the hackers.
This is my plea. This is all I'll ever say.
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Here comes that lovely phrase.. Its in alpha. Every time the devs change something, be it a fix or add, something else breaks. From these breaks, holes in security can open up.. To ask for something like this right now, regardless of how bad the hackers/glitchers are, is silly. Do you really think that demanding something like this makes it come out any faster? Or forces the devs to change their work plans? Not in the least. Relax.. deal with it for now.. Things will come when they get to it.
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These are kids as well, from what I can tell by their voices... And they think it is FUCKING HILARIOUS to noclip into our buildings after killing us by flying 700 ft above us, then taking all our hard earned shit. I mean this shit is rediculous and GAME BREAKING at the moment (for my team of people). They are literally standing at a little base they built waiting for us to log back on to kill us constantly. No fun what so ever. I know their names are ericZ, Mike, psisyndicat with the [SPTN] tag in front of their name... I have seen multiple posts on the "designated" hacker thread, but it is stupid full and nobody is really paying attention to this BIG problem. Nobody deserves to be hacked, even if it is in ALPHA.
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It might be better simply to have someone around on the servers to at least report (with credible information) hackers. Obviously developers do not really have the time for such things, but maybe some sort of server administrators are in order?
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Yeah... I doubt they'd want paid developers doing this. They could easily find a team and entrust in them the ability to remove hackers in the game. Temp bans, perm bans, etc. Some way to track IP's and/or userID's so that after they change their name they can still be banned.
It's not a crazy concept and not hard to implement. Neither is implementing an anti-cheat. At least Punkbuster as a temporary go between. You'll never stop it all, but you have to do something to put a temporary barrier or make it harder to do.
As for the comment above about it being an Alpha. That's no excuse. It might be an excuse to say why it's not in yet. But it's no excuse why it shouldn't be the NEXT thing to enter the game before any other feature (like "sleep logging").
Trust me, I fully understand how this works. I've done a TON of testing in all stages of development. You absolutely can't go to Steam like this and with new people being added daily... something has to happen. As in, yesterday.
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have any hacker or what ever u wanna call them been banned yet? i know it wont stop it all, but yea start banning ppl, it will cut it down alot, cause some will get banned, some will stop in fear of getting banned, and ofc alot will never do it cause they might get banned, i know u will always have that last grp of ppl that will cheat/hack no matter what. but atleast it shouldnt be as bad as it is atm.
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Hacking is a serious issue for many games. I'm more than positive that the Rust developers are aware of these problems and hopefully will address the issue of no-clipping....
Although I'm quite keen on the sleep logging server (ideology), but as Primus mentioned the hacking* may ruin the concept of the sleeping servers.
So yes, I have come to the conclusion hacking needs to be addressed more serious than ever ;)
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Actually this IS the time to do it. You don't fix it now and it gets worse and worse until you're beyond the point of no return. I've seen other good games crap out due to widespread hacking, the good players feel cheated and quit playing. There will always be a little, but that's why you have to keep on top of it, to keep it as minimal as possible...
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start with an engine void of any god/noclip commands, even for an admin, no back doors to no possibility of breaching them, instead add stuff in the engine that detects a players speed, if they go over a limit they get banned, if they move from one set of cords to fast to the next like teleporting they get banned
take ungodly amount of damage and dont die, get banned! deal ungodly amounts of damage....(you guessed it) and these measurements should be inherent within the engine making policing effortless.
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2 completely different topics, but I get it. Sleep logging should be on all servers, but first and foremost, active developmental assault against hacking is absolutely necessary before game-play progress and testing can actually be reputable and meaningful.
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Oh, and two days ago they gave me a 24 hr. forum ban because I said I didn't think they are banning hackers. Seriously, I'm a good honest customer with a valid complaint and that's the answer I got. This may be Alpha but they didn't give this to me, I am a paying customer and I don't really appreciate that treatment.
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Yea i seen ppl on the forum getting temp banned left and right, so i know who should have a look for hackers in the game.
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uhhh what lol
you got banned for demanding someone else on the forum get banned
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It doesn't work like that at all, sure you can have all these functions that check for damage and speed, but you know what hackers can do? Just disable the functions, its really easy if you're experienced in the field.
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Postal thinks this is funny guys don't worry.
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It's funny because everyone cries like little girls because hackers are ruining their 'alpha experience'. Face it, all of you are just playing for enjoyment and crying about hackers because they're ruining your experience. Nothing you do now will ever carry over to the final release. Just remember that.
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omg haokers
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Alpha or not, hacking is out of control and ruining everyone's experience. You know how little effort it'd take on them to honestly join the server for a few minutes and teleport to the guy (his past names are: dirtyghettogamer, Mike, TIK TOK). It's more than likely the same guy, cause he always brags about how many times he's been recorded and nothing has happened, they can easily identify him from his past usernames, it'd take them a few minutes to see him noclip through a building or jump ridiculously high in the air. I'm also doubting the mega jumping is not third party, I highly doubt that's some code error.
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Once again, when you bought a key(or if you got one free who knows) you weren't promised this 'experience' you keep talking about. The only thing you were promised is whatever garry and his team decide to shit out for the week. You aren't meant to have fun, you aren't meant to enjoy it, you are meant to test it and give feedback on game mechanics.
Fun fact, the final release will have playerhosted servers which will most likely come with the average powerhungry admin that will more that suit your no hacker needs. Until then please refrain from crying.
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I do agree that it is getting out of hand. Just logged off seeing two guys shooting up into the air and then back down killing people.
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I have to agree wholeheartedly with Primus's statement regarding the sleep server. I like the idea of this but as the game is now implementing this is a no go. Too easy for people to breach with exploits.
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From a developer/programmers point of view, implementing something that keeps hackers at bay is NOT difficult. Granted this is alpha. But that is the cliche excuse for every broken game before release. Look at how terrible BF3 was (didn't get a chance to play BF4) people just jumped on the bandwagon saying it was alpha, it was beta... I'm not going to push a dev's buttons to implement something that they labeled "alpha" but I swear if it's still here during beta or even release, I will be very disappointed.
Bukkit for minecraft was very exploitable until they had someone join their dev team that actually had a good clue about what they were doing. Security got patched up real quick.
Realistically this game should just not use the shitty unity engine.
I don't want to "test" a game that I payed for, that I can't even PROPERLY TEST. How are we supposed to know whats over powered when you lose everything every 24 hours. Just wipe the maps every other day at that point
Totally agree with how sleeping will be the death of this game if hacking is not fixed prior..
/end rant
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Well shit, in that case, how can I even do any testing for this "alpha game", since you know, your only excuse is that's it is alpha, right? I can't do any experience because of the ridiculous hacking. So yeah, probably should identify the individuals who are able to noclip into bases, there's an exploit I just found out while doing my alpha testing and where they can jump hundreds of feet in air, levitate if need be. And boom, another one I just found out with my alpha testing.
Hopefully it's patched therefore I can further conduct my alpha testing, along with everyone else.
Thanks for your awesome tips avincent!
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Hey, at least when they do add some sort of anti-cheat all the rampant hacking will help test it. . The problem sometimes with these multiplayer beta tests is that a player will find an exploit and not report it simply to abuse it which is rather unfortunate as it angers the rest of the community, wouldn't it be nice if we could all work together to make this the best game it can be?
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Yeah this game is getting ridiculous. I'm sick of the "this is alpha" excuses. People are abandoning the game daily. Do you notice how the servers are getting less and less populated? Nobody is going to beta test your game unless you make a statement that at least you are working to combat the glitching/hacking. We're not even asking for a resolution. Just a statement that you are aware of the issues. People on US West Coast right now are no-clipping bases, flying in the air, speed hacking, shooting M4s without cooldown, and the only updates we get is the"SLEEPER" mode. Really? Which is funny because all the sleeper mode does is allow these hackers to have even more access to your stuff. Not even logging off is safe anymore. Lol.
I understand alpha games can be buggy, but you still need to add some damn protection, even if it's just in alpha. How can people test your game, which they paid for by the way, if the game is basically unplayable?
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Lots of good points and good to see other people voicing their opinions. Here's hoping they see this thread.
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YES even the servers i have been on i have noticed the regulars slowly start dropping off becuz of this. Myself i have not played as much lately cuz of this crap that is going on. I also think instead of new MODES if you will like sleeper the hacking needs to be address or you wont have many testers left.
Lets be real if 1000 ppl are online playing..... how many of them are little kids that mommy paid for this game and have no clue on how to beta test and report issues.... well over 50 %. I noticed less and less everyday now maybe some cuz of the servers keep dying but a lot of them are saying screw it cuz of the hackers.
Its hard to test anything when u cant even play for a hr without being hacked and starting fresh. i will say one thing tho. Tic Tok and Fluska or however u spell it tested the hell outa your kill freed and comment section
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To be honest guys, Its alot harder to fix than you think. The hackers arent using console commands/game based stuff. If I remember correctly Unity's engine is VERY exploitable and it would be near impossible to fix. Plus its in alpha so why release it now when it gives hackers more time to find ways around things for the final release. So either they are going to have to switch engines or get a GOOD anti-hack (Vac doesn't count anything with a 2nd grade education can bypass it)
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I'll provide the list of them who were exploiting / involved with it.
TIC TOC (maybe TIC TOK) - no clipping / super jumping
ThatoneguyD: - super jumping (not sure on no clipping, just PvPed against him and saw him do it)
dirtyghettogamer - May or may not be TIC TOK, did the same stuff and here's videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B44oSm7x8fY & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJRjglptvEE
ErikZ - no cheats, just was teammates with them all
#YOLOSWAG2017 - no cheats, another teammate
There's nothing wrong with pointing out the bad alpha testers, is there?
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I am doubting they are going to switch engines as they would have to rework alot of things maybe though, and yeah VAC can be pretty bad, particularly in the fact that usually its a couple months after an offense before anything happens, the nice part about VAC is it deters people by them fearing the dreaded VAC ban and losing access to online gaming on steam forever (unless they re-buy all their games)
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Besides the fact its using the shitty engine unity, do you have the games source code? are you on the dev team? I wouldn't be giving the devs a free-pass on this. Nothing is impossible. As also nothing is fully secure either. It's just a matter of what is looking like really shitty priorities on the devs part. But I'm just going on of my visual opinion and experience as of late. Who knows whats going on behind the scenes.
I hope to see this game have its own engine.
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Do you realize the work involved in writing your own 3D FPS engine from the ground up?
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Yes. Do you realize how much this game is getting attention / income wise?Do you realize the work involved in writing your own 3D FPS engine from the ground up?
Unity is great for testing the "concept" of a game. But great games, like quake, minecraft, star citizen all have their own engines designed specifically for the game. Anything else is basically a "mod" and a mod is bloated and full of previously known exploits. Not saying this is a mod, but you get my point. blocking-script kiddies, glitches, are all unity engine limits that require a lot of "extra" code to coverup.
dayz is by far the best example
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I've had some experience with the subject of hack/cheat prevention. Thing is, if you want a game that cannot be hacked, then you can never trust anything the player sends. Anything. Ever. If they can possibly manipulate information, someone out there will. And they will release those exploits to the hacker community.
The ideal server only trusts the barest input from the players - essentially, players send the current state of their keyboard and mouse, and the server handles everything. Of course, this generally results in lag - the player's action reaches the server, gets processed, and then sent back to the player. If you want to see this in action, play Second Life. You'll quickly notice the control lag. This is generally bad in first person shooters, so you need clients to immediately predict what the server is about to perform. This can result in desyncs, so the server needs to periodically correct the client about the current state of the game (more complicated than it sounds, and takes some care in order to avoid the dreaded "rubber banding" effect).
This is all entirely doable, however (in the Unity game engine, even).
I actually have to correct jjhend and bstriker on this matter - it's not that Unity itself is exploitable (and sometimes it pains me to listen to people say things like that - Unity gets a bad rap for things which are the fault of people using Unity, not Unity itself), it's that the most common methods of writing netcode in Unity is highly exploitable. The problem is, generally players just tell the server what their position is. Easy to implement, very light network load, but unbelievably easy to hack.
Moving all of the work to the server and having players only send basically the state of their keyboard and mouse is significantly harder to hack and would essentially eliminate all teleporting, lag stepping, damage value hacking, infinite ammo, noclip, etc, although it could put a much higher processing strain on the server.
The changes required for this are usually pretty big, however, and the longer they wait, the harder it could become. It also takes a lot of care to make sure it feels lagless and doesn't frequently rubber-band.
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Not really relevant I know but so you consider all the source engine games a HL mod?
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Speaking of which, I'd actually say Unity is one of the best game engines as far as this is concerned. It's not "modding" by any stretch of the imagination, because Unity is mostly just a blank slate. Sure, some things are handled for you - physics, scene structure, rendering, etc. But just about everything else is up to you.Not really relevant I know but so you consider all the source engine games a HL mod?
By contrast, when using the Unreal engine I always felt like I was modding Unreal Tournament. Just didn't feel right.
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lol they basically are. Most of them started out as mods. Bought out by valve. Closed the source. Then integrated it into a more "polished standalone version"Not really relevant I know but so you consider all the source engine games a HL mod?
Hell original half life was created from the quake engine.
Edited:
This is a very truthful statement, touche. I guess I'm just and old school gamer, missing the good old days.
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To be fair, a lot of really good games have been made with the Unreal engine, and a lot of them don't even remotely look like Unreal Tournament.
But it was my experience while working with UDK that many features existed in UE3 specifically for games made by Epic (like Unreal Tournement, and I actually remember a dismemberment feature for ragdolls where the documentation mentioned the feature being made for Gears of War) that were generalized and added to the engine.
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Yes, somehow i knew you were going to write that, gamer sense, you are correct they were originally mods as all of us know, although a lot of the actual games are nothing mechanics wise like the original counterpart for example tf2, dota 2 is a good example of opposite of that though as its almost an exact replication.
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