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Post #81
TOO MANY WORDS!!I see this feature as a marmite. You either love it or hate it.
Which is why I think it's important that if we get the option to host dedicated servers that this be a feature that can be turned on/off. If it stays as official facepunch servers only (which I think would be a great shame - though that's an entirely different debate), then there should be a variety of different setups to appeal to everyone. Personally I think the point of the PvE server is silly, but I understand and respect that others enjoy playing like that and it's narrow-minded of me to rule it out as a playstyle because it's not my cup of tea.
Afterall, the PvE server had experimental slapped on it before the last wipe, and the game is Alpha. The sleeper is also experimental. We are testing a far from finished product here.
I really disagree with the OP and I think the "sleeper" has a lot of potential and is a great idea. Having said that, I also agree it's not ideal in the current state of the game and I think it's going to be easily written off as a horrible idea because of that. This thread: http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1316807 addresses some of the issues currently and offers some solutions i.e. traps to protect yourself.
This feature isn't for those in the community which get upset because they get raided by a bigger group (online or offline). If you for example logout of the sleeper server and are worried during your day to day life about if you've been brutally violated while offline then I really don't think you've got the right mindset.
For me the fun isn't from HODORing lots of stuff and stroking myself whilst looking in my storage boxes, it's the "startup". You know, those first like 48 hours of gameplay where it feels like kill or be killed.
When I have a steady supply of C4, kevlar and M4s the game to me gets pretty dull. I'm one of those guys which apparently should die of cancer, in a fire, by monkeys abusing my butt and lots of other strangely creative deaths. I do kinda wish people would focus that hateful creativity elsewhere instead of wasting their time trying to hurt my feelings over a game.
When you get in that position (and I've played in a mix of organised groups consisting of 3-15 players) it becomes boring very quickly once you hit that "end". The game literally turns into an arena deathmatch, and lets be honest, the gun play though enjoyable is point and click. Doesn't exactly require lots of individual skill (though team play is important and that's where the skill is).
When I'm at that point I don't need to give a second thought about who i'm attacking because if I die it's whatever, and chances are I'm going to drop that sucker as two headshots kills a kevlar guy; just need to pick the right moment. /Yawn - gets old quick.
The excitement and thrill for me personally is when you've got very little which makes that very little matter so much. I like it when I die and it actually hurts my progression. I like taking risks and being rewarded but I also like taking a risk and it going wrong. The most fun I've had was being the underdogs of the server against a much bigger, much better organised, more experienced and better geared group that was running over everyone including us.
You know.. those times when you've only got a P250, small house and you're questioning yourself on a hill looking down at three guys in cloth putting their walls on their new foundations, and you're asking yourself if it's worthwhile trying to engage in a dialogue with them or trying to gun all of them down and make it away with their stuff.
Well, usually the gunning them down works pretty terribly when suddenly a bunch of doors open on nearby towers and you're gunned down like a rabid dog. But that's the fun. Either way I digress, my point is the fun is the fight to survive. Losing stuff is fun, no matter how far progressed you are - yes, being killed while naked with nothing is an annoyance, but that's simply because ammo, guns etc are too easily accessible. That's an issue with the current state of the game, sleeper experiment or not.
My group has self wiped a couple of times simply because it's more enjoyable. Maybe we're masochists, or maybe we have a different mindset. If someone rolls over me, I don't get mad or curse, I set out to return the favor.
Now I'm not saying this sleeper feature should be rolled out to all servers or be a fixed feature of the game at all - now that imo would be silly. Offering a variety of ways to play is key here. Everyone likes different things and the game should be able to be played in a variety of ways. If I put the time into raiding someone, or if someone puts the time into raiding me then it should be very worthwhile. They shouldn't just find empty chests.
Now yes, I get it. C4 is way too easy to get currently, especially for bigger groups / groups that play hell of a lot more. If you control the airdrops a few times then you'll be swimming in C4. Though once again, that's an issue with the current state of the alpha.
Infact.. most of the issues with the "sleeper" being bought up stems from issues with the game in its current state i.e. it's stupid because hackers can just no clip into your house and kill you sleeping. Well screw me sideways and call me bessy, if that's part of your best reasoning for removing it then what's the point in playing the game anyway? A hacker can just no clip and kill you after you login. It's not hard to see who logs in then TP to them, slaughter them, take everything. That's a technicality that needs to be dealt with, and the game is in alpha. I'm sure they're working on better anti-cheat methods and I'm glad the hackers are being so obvious and vocal because it forces the developers to do something about it.
Another example, C4 being to easy to make so someone who plays a lot can just raid you while you're offline and kill you. How do you even know that C4 is going to be in the game in three weeks?
Maybe Garry and crew have already decided they'll be removing C4 in its current implementation and in place implementing home made explosives. These explosives could be really really difficult to make, hard to transport and have potential of backfiring.
Raiding needs to have high investment and high risk, but also big rewards. Logging off with the majority of your valuables just doesn't seem right and I've found it a chore to have to take / place items back and forwards between chests. I've found myself logging out during a raid rather then fighting because of gear. It's stupid. I should be fighting for my life, going out like scarface, not logging off like a girl just to spite the raiders. As far as I'm aware the game isn't meant to be about hording everything in a safe place. If someone invests a lot into trying to ruin my day then good on them. I'll pay them back in due time.
Lets pretend there's no box exploits and people can't just build normal building parts up to your other floors and instead need to use ladders (which can be destroyed fairly easy by the defenders - though that doesn't exactly help if you're offline of course), so you intentionally build an open window on the top so they ladder up to it (easy breach point). They find a door to blow that goes into what looks like to be a storage room. They open one of the chests in that room then boom, guy dies to some sort of wire tripped explosive, maybe there's a cobra in the box - who knows, I'm throwing random thoughts off the top of my head out there.
Basically, they've breached into a Trap room that you've intentionally placed to lure raiders. The raiders had no idea. That's being creative. Imagine trip wires, and all other kind of traps you could setup. Imagine you can poison food so they take your food and end up dying themselves - now that's some karma for you.
Now what's to stop a group just setting off all those traps and relooting their corpses? Well depending on the type of damage and where that damage was placed, items on the player could be damaged / destroyed (taking a leaf out of the new feature mentioned for DayZ Standalone - this has already been bought up as well). If you've got C4 on you and you get hit by an explosive or take a bullet hit.. well, potential boom. Everything on you could be destroyed.
Though I have strayed off topic at points, it is all kind of relative to each other as the current game state affects how the "sleeper" experiment works, but the potential is there. What I'm trying to really dig at is it's very shortsighted and narrow minded to write off this idea before it has even had a chance to be properly realized. Having said that, I still think that it shouldn't be a permanent fixed feature, but rather down to the player to pick the server they want to play on (just like players have the choice to play on the PvE server). We might both love Rust, but your flavor might be different to mine. Can't we all co-exist?
At the end of the day this is meant to be a tough survival game. From the front of the site "This is in very early public development. Everything will change. Beware.". Nothing is set in stone nor is what we have currently a representation of the final version. You bought into a game in early development that's going to evolve in a variety of ways that I, you, or even Garry doesn't even know yet. We have but a basic preview. I'm not saying don't give feedback or your opinion on how things are panning out currently; that's important. What I'm trying to say is look at the big picture, rather then focusing on this is what we got, this is how it's going to be, go die in a fire!!
Just my two cence. I'm not really much of a poster, just a long time lurker, but I've played RUST a lot so far and the sleeper servers have put some more risk and fun back into the game for me and my friends personally. I actually like a lot of the ideas popping up around it, like being a set time you stay in game rather then till you login, or your character being some type of NPC. Lots of ideas to be toyed with. Really hope you let the whole sleeper experiment pan out much further into development and just see how it goes.
(User was banned for this post ("dumb reaction gif reply" - postal))
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TOO MANY WORDS!!
(User was banned for this post ("dumb reaction gif reply" - postal))
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Now I will start out by saying "I do not own the game yet" so all of this is from what I have seen on videos and read from post. So take this with a grain of salt.
What is all the QQ about?
Thy are trying something new to stop one of the big problems in this game. Yes hacking and jerks are a big part of it right now but the incentive to raid is also a problem. Right now people only seem to raid when thy
(a) want to mess up some ones base or
(b) know people are in it and hope thy get to them before thy log.
Right now this is a server type of its own (like pve) and there is no word that it will be for all servers (that I have seen). I really wonder how many of you have even tried it.
The game is changing and growing every day and with it new ideas are being added, thy are hearing out our voice and taking notes. For this type of forum to be made and this much hate to be shown on something that is 17 hours old. Come on people.
Hackers will thin out we will get protection from them.
Privet servers will thin out the jerks.
Its a rough time to try something like this but hay If you can't test stuff in alpha when can you?
So instead of yelling, crying, and stating thy don't hear your voice. Try it out see what problems come up form what has happen to you not what you think TEST IT!
I hope that I get to stand on the ground floor with you all and help make this game as great as it looks like it will be.
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I know this isn't a business decision. I only made that point because you were saying that having people work together and play all the time was a good thing. If the servers are run by the kinds of folks who can afford to play all the time and the game is heavily balanced not just in their favor to be successful, but also heavily balanced against the folks that don't to their detriment, the latter may not stick around.
Fair enough regarding your point about where the game is heading towards. If sleepers stays an option on some servers until it becomes easier to defend your base while absent, then I guess I won't really have an opinion until that becomes a reality. Will it make sense long term? Hard to say right now because, as you said in another thread, the game is already heavily unbalanced towards raiders. Seems to me the sleepers option makes it even more so.
My opinion was based on how the game is now with adding sleepers, not how the game will be in the future after adding sleepers and improving raider versus defender balance. My opinion might very well be different in that scenario.
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As someone who has played the game for a little bit, my early impressions are that this is not the case. I have seen lots of raiding. People unfortunate enough to show up later and are only in a shelter get raided all the time. Smaller bases get raiding quite a bit too. The larger bases don't because you never know who is inside at any given time, and I'm not sure sleepers would tip it enough to overcome the uncertainty.
What about making the personal inventory smaller? If fewer items can be held, bases will have more items in them. That would make big bases more attractive targets.
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I forgot something I thought about last night while playing US East Sleepers. Can you disable the connected and disconnected messages on sleeper servers? If you know who a guy is that lives in the house next to you, knowing they have disconnected is a huge advantage on sleepers servers. Also, change the /msg response if a player isn't on the server so you can't 'ping' them to see if they are on or off.
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I think this can work, it just needs some tweaks and tools for it to work more effectively.
I'd suggest for a special metal-case sleeping closet. Just walk into it, close the closet and log off.
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Signed.
Edited:
I want trip wire !
or maybe something like they had in half life - sentry mines more advanced trip wire, or give us a shovel and let us craft spikes from wood that hit you as you enter a door with c4 so its not like ok yay we just c4'd a wall lets all rush in " which we do alot to get to the goodies " so they rush in and bam get hit by a booby trap in the face! or fall into one outside before even applying the c4
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This may not be related (dont ban me for it) but, are you ever going to fix the problem with amd cards? also, i agree with Garry.
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I didnt read this whole thread so It may have been suggested but..
WHAT IF instead of being "sleeping" when you logged off, your body was still there but as an NPC? And it attacks anything in a 5 foot radius that comes near it? This could be a problem for teamates but I sure they could figure something out.
This would keep the risk of logging off but at least would add some chance of survival? Idk
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Encourage people to pick up the game as a second job.
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Snipers/people with guns can easily take them out.
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I do like this idea. I have no problems so far. I was able to estabilish quite big base with plenty of metal doors which makes me feel safe :)
The real problem is HACKERS.
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Hardly much point in raiding. Why?
By the time anyone have enough C4 to blow through multiple doors the player/group doing the raiding wouldn't even need loot cause they already got....everything?
Heck the only point in raiding at the moment is to just waste crap you gathered to try and enjoy a game that has no other point than preparing you to slaughter other players.
And before you say "that's why it's alpha"
Why not do something different and add more to the environment to test?
ex
-AI transporting loot from point A to B
-A currency system
-Bounty system to place bounty on other players
-A safe/not safe town where you can trade with AI/buy/sell
-A new map. Jungle anyone?
-Women character wink wink
-Maybe a public transporting system like a train that goes around a map and anyone can go on.
-A farming system where you can plant food or trees.
-Fishing anyone?
These are just a few ideas.
It's just that I see so many games calling themselves "survival game" but how much truth is there to that? Do we just throw in pvp and call it survival? If so then you might as well call every game with pvp a "Survival game".
I want to see jungles, deserts, snow etc.
I want to see more added to the environment and more danger besides real players.
And before you say "this game isn't for you"
Well think for a moment and ask yourself. What IS the meaning of a survival game?
Is it shooting other players day in day out with no other threat like every other survival game I'm playing?
I just want to see a game someday where they can truly and proudly say
"We are the first REAL survival game"
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Maybe once anyone can host Rust servers of their own, have an option to turn sleepers mode on or off? Then people can choose whether they want to join a server with it or not.
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garry this is a bit off topic possibly? anyway the normal servers also have the sleeping feature even though the server title says that it is normal
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Now this is pretty sweet. It's easy to forget how early we are because what's there feels so solid. I'm more of a solo player so the ability to trick out my base is very interesting...
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Survival. What's the point of playing a game that focus on building a bunker, a town, a community and surviving either alone, by building far away from any human eye, or with a group by building a safe haven for your people.
What's the point in all this if you don't really ever lose anything.
-Get raided? Log out with your stuff.
-Get attacked in the wild? Sprint until you are safe to log out.
-Got a base? What's the point just logout with anything worthwhile.
Sandbox. This is what most people looking for an open world freedom based survivor game want.
Sandbox. The chance to interact with people and dictate who lives and who dies. Be nice to people and they will help you, be hatefull towards people and they will rise up and kill you.
Sandbox. Something only possible if we have features that allow it. Risk vs reward is one of the most basic principles that rule over real life AND sandbox games.
People that cannot see this are most likely looking for a game that is not rust.
People that blame numbers and groups and see them as flaws in the game design are NOT looking for a sandbox multiplayer game. Numbers are always an advantage, you are the one that chose not to team up for whatever reason.
People that blame "no-lifers" as flaws to the game are NOT looking for a sandbox multiplayer game. It is basic logic that if you commit more time than someone else to anything, you will most likely be better than that person at what you are doing.
Go on garry, this is one of the features (or the foundation of it) that will define rust as a true survival multiplayer sandbox game.
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People need to also remember the game will go through many different changes and there won't be full kevlar groups loaded with M4's anymore. Look at the single-shot shotgun for example. That will be huge.
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really cool that you put it on all the servers with out saying anything
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Look who is whining about the best update in my life, DES the infamous combat loggers who sell their C4 now can't stash it safely!
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That would be the smart thing to do, and nothing more than throwing a switch. Though I prefer sleeper, I haven't realized any reason why one type is "better" than the other, other than gross subjective generalizations of "taste".
There are consumer tastes that will "hinge" on playing with one preference vs the other, or not playing at all, for that matter.
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Well, i didnt like the change, i can live with all exploits and hackers now, but im a worker, im not a no life dude, that can play this game 24/7... So this is the bad idea ever, maybe 5 min sleeper, as someone said. And i lost everything, without any notice that US East was a sleeper server... really cool. Just wipe everything and start the experiment.
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I love people that disagree but don't really state why. I guess it's because they just don't want a survival game.
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It's a brilliant idea, I wish more games would do stuff like this.
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Sandbox is what i want, but too much hardcore sandbox features can kill the game. Ok, its a experiment, but i dont think this is the better moment to make this experiment.
Surival sandbox game, nice, a lot of potential in Rust, but the experiment would be different with more types of defence or maybe with a full server wipe again. Now there is a lot clans with thousands of C4.
So, i dont like the full concept idea at this moment, and this is the wrong time to test this. There are much more important things to do or test right now in my opinion.
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But will good defenses matter, if you get raided when you're logged off anyways? Personally, from now on, I see no point in raiding when people are logged on. I'd wait for people to go to bed, and safely grab all their stuff without them even knowing.
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Putting it on every server won't kill the game but it will drive a lot of players away and give a lot of negativity early which WILL hurt the games movement forwards.
Adding new servers with the sleeper addition to them instead of screwing with people already on the server would be good though. (So people who do support the decision can still enjoy the experience)
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What about those that agree and dont state why ?
But as i said in other posts, i do like the idea, i just dont think now with all the hacks/hackers out there is the best time to put it in the game.
Edited:
i agree with you, i mainly play on the PvE server since you have more peace to find bugs there then on the PvP server, and i almost always log out outside my house cause of all the griefers on PvE, so if i get raided and griefed i can still play on and wont get locked inside my house
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There are several posts already explaining why we disagree.
With the current state of base defense being mainly 'security through obfuscation', i.e., house full of mazes and metal doors, with no passive defense capabilities, this sleeper mechanism mainly benefits those who come to the game with a large group already and/or those who have no real world obligations that lets them play 24-7. These groups ALREADY have huge advantages in Rust and this mechanism just gives them even more advantage.
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OP doesn't quite understand the purpose of this game. The purpose of the game is survival. This isn't call of duty or an typical MMO. It's perma-death.
The way I see it, the sleeper system will reduce raiding to an extent, because you're going to have to concentrate on building a viable shelter before you even think about raiding. I've seen numerous people put up a wooden shack, craft a gun, then go kill all of their neighbors. Then log out with all of the loot he collected with no consequence.
With the sleeper system, his door gets chopped down and he's back to square one... but if he would have co-habituated and built a decent defense, not only does he now have other people around him that may come to his aid, he also has more than a wooden shack. So, even if his door is busted and his stuff is stolen, he has 600 wood worth of building up. That's not square one. Even with the sleeper system. The normal state of the game encourages people to do shit like make a 2x1 metal shack out by the air drop zone and control it without worry. They don't need to work toward anything, they have guns falling from the sky and simply go on random shooting rampages for no real reason other than ruining fun.
It's a step in the right direction. The cherry on top would be a key system for doors so you can make more complex fortress while still having the ability for allies to enter and exit using a single door. Having to put up 3 doors everywhere really limits the defensive possibilities for a group of friends.
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Just join a big clan that got members online more or less 24/7 and nothing realy changes, you would raid the same cause u always have ppl at base defending what ever loot you would be getting, only change for them would be maybe make a bed room for logging out in.
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So, let me get this straight... Like every other persistent online game known to man you become more successful if you play with others?
Holy shit! You just blew my mind!
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Just build a bunch of different directions in your house, with metal doors blocking the way. If you throw enough in there, it'll dramatically lower the chances of anybody getting to you and your stuff. I play solo and manage this just fine. If your house gets raided, it's kind of unfair to the people who grind out the explosives to get zilch because you decided to log out and save your goodies.
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Nothing wrong with sleeper idea. The major issue is that hackers/cheaters are not actively being banned. We need mods/gm's actively in game spectating people to remove them permanently from the game...and if they rebuy the game it gives Garry more money.
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Honestly, with a feature like this, I feel that it'll either always be used or never be used.
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seems like you where wrong evry server i join is now sleeper.
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This would fit as a better solution for players taking all there stuff with them while logging off.
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lol..it was tongue-in-cheek, but sorry it didn't come across that way. Personally, I prefer sleeper.
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Here is the problem other than people who are already in huge groups. Basically new players are fucked. And they will not want to play the game after getting their shacks, small house, killed by animals, killed by players. They are going to just quit playing the game and say fuckit I want a refund. Not to mention the connection issues, error's etc. The developers are killing the game by adding it to all servers. If it stays this way, the game is dead. It will ruin itself for future sales. "Hey you ever played rust?" Yeah that game sucks, it's just a bunch of people who have everything in the game killing everyone. Welcome to rust, the less of a life you have, the more you are rewarded in-game.
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