1. Post #1
    Gold Member
    Deodorant's Avatar
    November 2011
    2,363 Posts
    I still think it might be a good idea to move the discussion of the Degreaser-Axtinguisher combo to a separate thread. Partly because this discussion may have a marginally higher chance of actually getting somewhere when it doesn't jump between the Stuff That Annoys You and the Weapon Fixing thread every few days and starts over from square one each time. Partly because those two threads will be more enjoyable when they aren't regularly drowned in this discussion.
    Let's see if it works, shall we?

    There was supposed to be a poll attached to the thread but apparently there's a 100 char limit to poll options and also a 10-minute limit for finishing the poll after posting a thread, and by the time I had shortened all options the time limit was over so we'll have to do this with ratings:

    What, if anything, is wrong with the Degreaser and Axtinguisher?

    - The Degreaser is overpowered. (Nerf the Degreaser)
    - The Degreaser is not overpowered, but badly skill indexed, unfun or otherwise broken. (Tweak the Degreaser)
    - The Axtinguisher is overpowered. The Degreaser is fine in conjunction with other weapons. (Nerf the Axtinguisher)
    - The Axtinguisher is not overpowered, but badly skill indexed, unfun or otherwise broken. (Tweak the Axtinguisher)
    - The Degreaser-Axtinguisher combo is overpowered. Both weapons are fine when used with other weapons. (Nerf the Degreaser and/or Axtinguisher in a way that targets their synergy)
    - The Degreaser-Axtinguisher combo is is not overpowered, but badly skill indexed, unfun or otherwise broken. Both weapons are fine when used with other weapons. (Tweak the Degreaser and/or Axtinguisher in a way that targets their synergy)
    - The Degreaser and Axtinguisher are both overpowered. (Nerf both weapons)
    - The Degreaser and Axtinguisher are both badly skill indexed, unfun or otherwise broken, but not overpowered. (Tweak both weapons)
    - The Degreaser and Axtinguisher are both fine, the Pyro's other weapons are underpowered. (Buff other Pyro weapons)
    - The Degreaser and Axtinguisher are both fine, and so are the Pyro's other weapons. (Frolic gaily through meadows of dew-speckled clover)
    - The Pyro class is inherently broken, and puff-n-sting is a result rather than the cause of the problems. (Larger-scale overhaul)

    The poll will, hopefully, give an approximate idea of what kind of fix most people think is needed, so we can then focus on figuring out how that fix should be designed. And even if the discussion doesn't get anywhere, the poll results might be useful if whichever Valve employee implemented the Loose Cannon decides to check back in on Facepunch again.




    Below is a collection of noteworthy posts, which I'll try to keep updated. If you think a specific post should be added or removed, please say so.

    wari65 posted:
    The flamethrower needs to be reworked at a fundamental level to make it more skill-based

    For starters, having a perfect damage cone like the phlog has so where you aim is where damage is actually done could do wonders for him in the long run.

    As someone suggested before, the flamethrower could be tweaked to work like the Tank's jet gun in (S)MNC. Along with a damage buff, this tweaked flamethrower would better encourage getting close to multiple enemies, as you now have an effective way to deal better with groups of people, but the very quick damage fall-off and smaller damage cone means that you can easily be picked off as soon as an effort is made to kill you.

    The degreaser after this could stay largely as it is right now, fire mechanics and all, but have a massive damage nerf to it to make it pale in comparison to the new flamethrower's direct damage.

    These changes would work to better make stock pyro a viable and skill based class, while allowing the degreaser to still maintain it's status as the king of combos. The big pull away from the degreaser now being the attractiveness of high DPS to multiple targets, as opposed to having to single out a single target to combo upon. If the combo mechanic still proves to be too strong, perhaps give the degreaser a marginally shorter afterburn duration, so if you aren't quick enough to act, your flames go out and you're just standing there looking like an idiot.

    The phlog and backburner could stay largely the same, but with the backburner having the same flame mechanic changes as the stock flamethrower. The crit angle on the backburner could also expanded, as right now it seems too insignificant of an angle for its crits to be reliable.

    The one other primary weapon issue with pyro I want to address is the airblast. The only thing that needs to be changed about this is to make it work more like the splash from explosions. It needs to be surfable and not stall all movement unless the person airblasted is running directly at the pyro. This would mean pyros have to be aware of their surroundings if they want to set someone up for a combo, as the opponent can otherwise escape easily by riding the airblast away. This change also has the benefit of making degreaser and its combos less reliable, and drawing people to the other flamethrowers.

    I've tried not to suggest making any big changes to weapons, but several small changes to make pyro more skill-based and viable, making the same results as pre-rework possible with skill and execution.

    Opinions?
    (Link to post)

    RandomGamer34 posted:
    The pyro in itself is a broken class because his main gimmick has a very low skill floor and a very low skill ceiling, meaning anyone can play it somewhat effectively and the point where you're at your best isn't all that effective compared to other classes(with the heavy+medic outdamaging him in DPS by twice the damage per second at point blank range)

    Instead of remaking the flamethrower mechanic, valve tried fixing this with unlocks and support features. Stuff like the airblast fixed pyro being useless in most cases by making him able to support the team and control enemy movement. Stuff like the backburner gave him more skill reward(eventually), but without really adding anything new to the formula. They then continued adding unlocks trying to balance the class, like the axtinguisher, homewrecker, degreaser, powerjack, etc.

    The issue is that attempting to balance by adding progressively better unlocks becomes a terrible idea once two of these begin synergising, with the degreaser completely breaking pyro even worse

    He goes from a "decent class at low skill levels, good at higher" to a class that becomes good regardless of how terrible you are. The combo removed the requirement of some aim that the flamethrower required to be truly effective, meaning anyone with the ability to successfully press M1+M2+2/3+M1 could reach pyro's skill ceiling and be on maximum effectiveness if they decided to use the axtinguisher/flaregun, or be ready for any situation without planning with simply the degreaser

    The issue isn't that it's necessarily overpowered and capable of wrecking teams - it's just that pyro's broken from the core and the degreaser breaks it even further. Valve's design philosophy is that player skill and tactics should be rewarded, while unlocks can veer the result of an evenly matched fight. For pyro, the first two were already very low, with the degreaser removing the first two and making everything hinge on the last one. This is wrong and bad, but valve will probably not attempt to fix pyro to avoid pissing off players.

    To illustrate my point, have a graph    that i drew up in a couple of minutes that isn't 100% accurate please don't kill me for inaccuracy it shows my point well enough    



    Sniper is a class that's completely useless if you have issues hitting the broad side of a barn door. However, the higher your skill becomes, the more you're rewarded - hypothetically, if you're good enough to never miss a headshot, you can deal 160~ damage almost instantly.

    Soldier is a class that splash damage and high health is possible to deal damage with even with terrible aim, but it's not going to be hard to shut you down. The amount of damage you can deal with soldier increases a lot as you learn to rocketjump, predict shots, juggle, airstrafe, hit airshots, etc. This is the same for most classes, all rewarding aim and technique/knowledge differently.

    Pyro breaks this formula by relying on shoddy particle physics on a weapon that doesn't need aim to deal decent damage. Even the lowest of the low can light someone on fire with the simple act of W+M1, and it should do enough damage to kill a panicking player or someone that's wounded. At higher skill levels you can ambush, support and track with the particles, leading to you having a good DPS. This is still limited because of the flamethrower having terrible DPS compared to other weapons like the sniper, rocket/grenade launcher, minigun, syringe gun, etc, making being good at pyro a lot worse than being good at other classes. Pyro simply doesn't have the possibility to be completely devastating, especially once his tactics stop working against higher level players.

    Then, you add the degreaser to the picture, which removes the last part that made a difference on the pyro's and enemy's skill, by letting you react to any situation without planning and deal the same or more DPS than the flamethrower without any of the effort involved. It makes it so that all you need to do is be capable of hitting an enemy following the exact same predictable trajectory(due to the way airblast works), so anyone with any kind of remote knowledge of what they're doing are capable of getting pyro's maximum combat effectiveness. Essentially, all you have to do is be capable of litting someone on fire and then hitting them with a melee for max damage. Mind you, this is still below the effectiveness possible with other classes, but at low player skill it's better than all the alternatives, maybe short of heavy.

    So why isn't the heavy broken like the pyro? I mean, he's gotten twice as much DPS and aim isn't that important, so why is it fine for a heavy to do this? Simple, heavy has counters. Heavy is slow, has a firing delay allowing you to escape or fight, and there are tons of classes designed to kill him. Pyro doesn't have any hard counters, short of a level 3 sentry preventing him from getting into effective range, and once he is, there's very little that the target's skill can do to help. You almost can't escape a flame particle, and once you're in the air by an airblast you need to be far above pyro's skill ceiling to actually beat him.

    tldr; pyro is too good for low skill players, too bad for high skill players, there's very little an enemy can do compared to other classes to fight him and his unlocks make all these problems worse by tenfold

    Make the flamethrower and airblast more based on user skill like most other weapons in the game, remove the degreaser or (more realistically) redesign pyro/it to not make every problem with pyro worse. There, we've fixed it.
    (Link to post)


    So... Let the debate commence, I suppose.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Show Events Informative x 72Late x 54Optimistic x 15Artistic x 13Agree x 9Disagree x 7Zing x 7Friendly x 5Dumb x 4Useful x 1Winner x 1Funny x 1 (list)

  2. Post #2
    Remove pyro
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Russian Federation Show Events Agree x 40Dumb x 5Funny x 4Late x 2Disagree x 1Winner x 1Artistic x 1 (list)

  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    15,070 Posts
    there's no "nerf the phlog and fix its shitty particles instead" option so I can't rate anything
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Show Events Dumb Dumb x 6Zing Zing x 1 (list)

  4. Post #4
    Drury's Avatar
    April 2011
    8,175 Posts
    Remove pyro
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Slovakia Show Events Zing x 9Agree x 3Funny x 2Informative x 1Artistic x 1 (list)

  5. Post #5
    Gold Member
    VinLAURiA's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,421 Posts
    While I do think that both Degreaser and Axtinguisher have their own problems that are only exacerbated when used together, I submit that many of these problems can be traced back to a common source. These two are only a part of it and we should be taking a step back and looking at the Pyro as a whole; more specifically, the core fire mechanic the entire class is based around.

    Many of the Pyro's problems stem from either shoddy uses of - or band-aids for - a poorly-implemented fire system. I think retooling how fire works would allow all the pieces to fall into place much more easily, because right now it appears that fire isn't really a fun mechanic to be on either end of. Trying to make either of these two weapons more "fair" around the current fire mechanic is a waste of time; not only would it be very difficult, it's ultimately a temp fix that's ignoring the bigger picture. Ever since the Pyro Update back in 2008 we've just been piling on more and more of these band-aids instead of addressing the root problem, trying to work around a broken system rather than fixing it directly.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 9 (list)

  6. Post #6
    slashsnemesis's Avatar
    July 2009
    5,428 Posts
    Nerf axtinguisher's damage so that a crit does like 100 damage and make it extinguish enemies on hit.

    This way, a puff n sting will be less effective but still useful, as it will put a class to very low health such that reigniting them will finish them off if they can't put themselves out.

    Basically it takes the puff n sting process (M1, M2, Q, M1) and makes it take longer while still being very lethal. This solves the problem of the victim of a puff n sting having very little reaction time to react and kill the pyro.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Disagree Disagree x 4 (list)

  7. Post #7
    Mr. Jelly's Avatar
    April 2013
    2,913 Posts
    While I do think that both Degreaser and Axtinguisher have their own problems that are only exacerbated when used together, I submit that many of these problems can be traced back to a common source. These two are only a part of it and we should be taking a step back and looking at the Pyro as a whole; more specifically, the core fire mechanic the entire class is based around.

    Many of the Pyro's problems stem from either shoddy uses of - or band-aids for - a poorly-implemented fire system. I think retooling how fire works would allow all the pieces to fall into place much more easily, because right now it appears that fire isn't really a fun mechanic to be on either end of. Trying to make either of these two weapons more "fair" around the current fire mechanic is a waste of time; not only would it be very difficult, it's ultimately a temp fix that's ignoring the bigger picture. Ever since the Pyro Update back in 2008 we've just been piling on more and more of these band-aids instead of addressing the root problem, trying to work around a broken system rather than fixing it directly.
    Where's the this post option in the OP
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  8. Post #8
    I always liked idea of giving the Degreaser more damage, but no after burn, not sure how many people would like that though...
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United Kingdom Show Events Agree Agree x 5Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)

  9. Post #9
    Gold Member
    Deodorant's Avatar
    November 2011
    2,363 Posts
    While I do think that both Degreaser and Axtinguisher have their own problems that are only exacerbated when used together, I submit that many of these problems can be traced back to a common source. These two are only a part of it and we should be taking a step back and looking at the Pyro as a whole; more specifically, the core fire mechanic the entire class is based around.

    Many of the Pyro's problems stem from either shoddy uses of - or band-aids for - a poorly-implemented fire system. I think retooling how fire works would allow all the pieces to fall into place much more easily, because right now it appears that fire isn't really a fun mechanic to be on either end of. Trying to make either of these two weapons more "fair" around the current fire mechanic is a waste of time; not only would it be very difficult, it's ultimately a temp fix that's ignoring the bigger picture. Ever since the Pyro Update back in 2008 we've just been piling on more and more of these band-aids instead of addressing the root problem, trying to work around a broken system rather than fixing it directly.
    Well said.

    My own opinion - which I didn't put in the OP because I don't like it when thread starters do that - basically goes as follows:

    Puff-n-sting is iffily skill indexed. It's somewhat tricky to learn, and once you've learned it it's more viable than other Pyro tactics of comparable difficulty, which creates a leap in effectiveness. From there on however, its effectiveness barely increases with skill at all. In my experience, puff-n-sting Pyros don't actually get more kills than other combat classes, but the way the tactic works, the victims need to defend themselves before it happens rather than while it does, which makes it feel more unfair and powerful than it actually is. I do think crit combos are more viable than regular fire/afterburn damage at any given skill level, though, which suggests that the latter are underpowered and need to be buffed. But a TF2 in which you die as often of afterburn as you currently do of, say, scattergun shots or stickybombs seems like it would be incredibly unfun.
    So I guess I'm in the 'Pyro needs a big overhaul' camp.

    Where's the this post option in the OP
    Added.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 Sweden Show Events Friendly Friendly x 1 (list)

  10. Post #10
    Drury's Avatar
    April 2011
    8,175 Posts
    Can't really think of a way to tweak fire. Fortress Forever uses a gradual system where you take more fire and afterburn damage the longer you're being roasted - then again, FF is a completely different game. Another way would be to make it work similarly to flamethrower in Worms Armageddon (again, a completely different game), where it rapidly throws fire blobs that quickly lose velocity and increase in volume as they do and fall down to the ground. Imagine a rapidfire sandvich that sets people on fire.

    About airblast, it's been said before - make it work more like basic explosion knockback, not aim-assist in disguise. Less control over enemy movement, maybe stronger push force to give them an opportunity to escape. Flare gun would become a more skill-based weapon this way as well, currently it's not much harder than puff'n'sting with axtinguisher.

  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    Wolf532's Avatar
    August 2013
    2,848 Posts
    Can we bitch about minisentries in here too

    like seriously degreastinguisher is nowhere near as evil as those mini-antifun-hate machines.

    Anyway, talking about the actual thread, seriously I think the axtinguisher is the one that's broken as hell. The degreaser is the weapon that makes pyro an actually viable class and able to deal burst damage with the flaregun/shotgun and still have the utility of an airblast on the whim. Most pyros (or at least most good ones) generally use the shotgun/flaregun to deal their damage because the higher in skill you get, axtinguisher becomes REAL risky business to use and is mostly use as a heavy-killing stick. Seriously, flamethrowers in general are broken because of how flame particles worth. Getting some utility out of your flamethrower is WAY better than extra 10% damage (seriously, that's like 20 DPS on a THEORETICAL 150 DPS. So in reality its probably like 5-10 extra DPS) and you're 20% more likely to get a lucky afterburn kill. The burst damage you're gonna get out of your shotgun or flaregun is always, ALWAYS going to be better than the (again, theoretical) 150 DPS of your flamethrower. Is the degreaser an upgrade in every single way? Yes. IS it broken? No. Again, it makes pyro actually able to defend himself by using his primary source of damage (His secondary) and still having the utility of airblast even when he has his secondary out. But really though, the axtinguisher needs to be reworked so that it isn't as broken when you get at lower skill levels.

    tl;dr flamethrowers as a weapon type are broken (In the fact that they're terrible), the degreaser as a weapon is fine, axtinguisher needs a rework and pyro needs a rework.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Disagree Disagree x 6Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  12. Post #12
    Gold Member
    Havolis's Avatar
    November 2012
    3,549 Posts
    Can we bitch about minisentries in here too

    like seriously degreastinguisher is nowhere near as evil as those mini-antifun-hate machines.
    I have no problem with mini-sentries. I don't understand why do people bitch so much about it, it's very easy to destroy, even with a scattergun. The only nerf i think would be good for it would be a slower firing speed.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Lebanon Show Events Agree Agree x 3Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    Everything's Avatar
    May 2011
    5,621 Posts
    Just require X number of fire particles to contact an enemy before they catch fire, and boom, problem solved. They'd still take damage from the fire before that point, but they wouldn't physically ignite.

    This would require any flamethrower to be used slightly longer on an enemy before the Axtinguisher can be used, giving them more time to fight back without reducing the damage potential of the combo.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Winner Winner x 1 (list)

  14. Post #14
    Ask me about my 'female train' fetish.
    Dennab
    January 2006
    5,457 Posts
    I have no problem with mini-sentries. I don't understand why do people bitch so much about it, it's very easy to destroy, even with a scattergun. The only nerf i think would be good for it would be a slower firing speed.
    Go play koth sawmill and you'll understand why people hate minisentries so badly.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United Kingdom Show Events Agree Agree x 4 (list)

  15. Post #15
    R R E R R R
    01271's Avatar
    October 2009
    5,153 Posts
    Just require X number of fire particles to contact an enemy before they catch fire, and boom, problem solved. They'd still take damage from the fire before that point, but they wouldn't physically ignite.

    This would require any flamethrower to be used slightly longer on an enemy before the Axtinguisher can be used, giving them more time to fight back without reducing the damage potential of the combo.
    That or make it so that a single particle of fire will set them on fire but only after 2 seconds or so.

  16. Post #16
    Gold Member
    Venezuelan's Avatar
    September 2011
    12,172 Posts
    Degreaser itself is the problem. Degreaser + Airblast + Flare Gun is just as powerful if not more when you know what you're doing. Trust me, it's my main pyro tactic. (yes I'm a dick who abuses something I find OP)
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Brunei Darussalam Show Events Agree Agree x 7 (list)

  17. Post #17
    Eriorguez's Avatar
    May 2011
    2,801 Posts
    The Degreaser gives a huge advantage at negligible disadvantage, and also bypasses a skill gate via eliminating the need to get a window to safaly change your weapon. Needs a on-wearer drawback at least.

    Also, Flamethrowers need a bit of a rework, but still could be worse. However, what needs a rework is the fucking ammount of players who complain about flamethrowers being overpowered. No they are not, learn stuff before trying to pull an argument.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Spain Show Events Agree Agree x 2Disagree Disagree x 1 (list)

  18. Post #18
    Gold Member
    Everything's Avatar
    May 2011
    5,621 Posts
    I still think requiring more than a single flame particle to ignite someone would fix not just Degreaser tactics (Axtinguisher AND Flaregun), but Pyro in general.

    Pyro is not OP, he's just not fun to fight against. Unless the Pyro you're facing doesn't believe in primaries, you WILL catch fire and perhaps slowly and helplessly burn to death as a result. That's not exciting, that's tedious, and nearly as irritating as poison in most RPGs. Ask Pyros to give a bit more thought and effort into their placement and tactics before being able to score that afterburn, and things become a little more interesting.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 4 (list)

  19. Post #19
    ArchXeno's Avatar
    March 2010
    933 Posts
    I still think requiring more than a single flame particle to ignite someone would fix not just Degreaser tactics (Axtinguisher AND Flaregun), but Pyro in general.

    Pyro is not OP, he's just not fun to fight against. Unless the Pyro you're facing doesn't believe in primaries, you WILL catch fire and perhaps slowly and helplessly burn to death as a result. That's not exciting, that's tedious, and nearly as irritating as poison in most RPGs. Ask Pyros to give a bit more thought and effort into their placement and tactics before being able to score that afterburn, and things become a little more interesting.
    For this to work, afterburn will have to be more of a threat to people that don't have 20 HP.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2Disagree Disagree x 1 (list)

  20. Post #20
    thephantur's Avatar
    September 2013
    224 Posts
    I loathe the axtinguisher. There's not much you can do to stop eating a 195 crit to the face. Thanks to the Pyros 175 HP, he doesn't even need to dodge, he can just charge at a revved up Heavy and land those crits. Even worse is if the Pyro just airblasts you into a corner. It's aggravating and just not fun to play against. Valve has been stating they want weapons to be fun to play with and against. Airblasting and then eating an assured crit is not fun. At all.

    Come to think of it, if airblast didn't throw enemy players around I think that'd be a bit easier to deal with.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 7Winner Winner x 1 (list)

  21. Post #21
    Drury's Avatar
    April 2011
    8,175 Posts
    I have no problem with mini-sentries. I don't understand why do people bitch so much about it, it's very easy to destroy, even with a scattergun. The only nerf i think would be good for it would be a slower firing speed.
    It's not that much of a problem if you prefer sticking with your team.

    Gets worse if you're a roamer and live just to get that demo/heavy/medic down. But NO, there's this thing, instantly gunning you down as you go in for the kill.

    Hence it's a common problem on hightower/sawmill. Those are basically roamer simulators with no teamwork going on whatsoever.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Slovakia Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  22. Post #22
    SleepyAl's Avatar
    December 2010
    954 Posts
    I feel like the Degreaser is the root of the problem. If you make it so it still has the fast switch speed but ignites slower/not at all, then people will just ignite with the flare gun then switch to Axstinguisher. If you nerf the Axstinguisher then people will just puff and flare, which isn't fun to fight against at all.

    When the first Pyro update came out, barely anyone used the Axstinguisher because it was so slow to take out and then melee with. When the Polycount Update came out with the Degreaser, there was a whole new wave of puff and sting.

    I saw rework the Degreaser's main ability, the fast weapon switch speed. The Degreaser makes it so Pyro can weapon haggle so much more efficiently than other classes, while also not allowing the enemy to properly prepare for an axe or flare gun shot. If you see people puff and flare you'll know how annoying that is, comparable to the Axstinguisher if you're a low health class (initial flame particle + 90 dmg crit and sent flying away from the impact)

    Some people have suggested many ways to change the Degreaser, like spreading oil instead of airblasting, but the airblast is the second most important thing for a Pyro to use and we've seen via the Backburner what it's like not to have any airblast. I say rework the passive ability.

    Some options are increased walk speed (which would make it useful with it's Polycount set item the Powerjack), or maybe make flares travel faster? Or, just make it's airblast faster to fire.

    There's tons of ways you could tweak it. I'm not suggesting my ideas are the best, but I feel like my main point that the Degreaser should be tweaked is strong enough to stand on it's own.

  23. Post #23
    Justjake274's Avatar
    June 2010
    1,052 Posts
    degreaser: marked for death for 1 second after switching weapons? vv

    I dunno. Maybe it'll help people to make their switching count rather than fucking around with every weapon at all times.

    I like puff n sting btw

  24. Post #24
    Raffle Rigger
    Psychopath12's Avatar
    November 2010
    16,627 Posts
    There are really 3 core issues with the Pyro.

    1. Flame particles are awful.
    The particles as they are now make the flamethrower an incredibly easy weapon to use with an entry-level skillset. Yet with a higher-level skillset, the flamethrower's shortcomings are exacerbated: the particles are unreliable in trajectory, incredibly limited in zoning capabilities, and just flat out don't do much damage in comparison to other primary weapons. Having ease of use but limited overall capabilities make for the flamethrowers' primary method of attack have very little depth beyond learning how to get into attacking range (which is a skill that's not specific to Pyro) or learning how to lead the particles (which is a crapshoot with how unpredictable they can be).

    2. Class wasn't built as an ambusher.
    It never was back in Quake, it never was in TFC, and it sure as hell wasn't in TF2. The class was literally "that guy with the flamethrower" in days of old; as such he just adhered to the clunky Hollywood-esq flamethrower effects that have stuck since the 90s. The Scout, Medic, and Spy all got drastic overhauls from the shift from TFC to TF2, the Pyro should have been reimagined along with them. The class isn't ambusher by design, but by necessity of its mechanics. The ambush-oriented weapons that the Pyro has gotten over the years have been hodgepodge bandages over the leaky ship that is Pyro. They hadn't decided what exactly the class's role should be for having such ease of entry and use. Afterburn and penetrating flame particles are more akin to general disruption than ambush; it forces teams to scatter in order to find ways to mitigate the damage they're taking. If the class were more intentionally designed as a disruption class, we'd be in a very different place right now.

    3. Compression blast's mechanics are poorly handled.
    In particular, how they impact enemy positioning is poorly handled. We have a game where sources of knockback are determined by the force of impact and directional influence: hit someone with a crit and they'll go flying in the direction you hit them in; the Force-a-Nature and all explosives are exaggerations of this consistent knockback system that's in place. Then there's the compression blast which sends the victim in the exact same trajectory every single time. This makes it uninteresting for the Pyro and frustrating for the victim. Since it's so one-dimensional in how it affects the victim, it offers little depth to allow the Pyro to do some really interesting things with knockback and introduces a skill requirement needed to properly juggle someone instead of staring at them and taping down M2. Mechanics should be fun to use and to play against, the compression blast is insufficient at meeting those 2 prerequisites. Losing player control in any real-time game only breaks immersion, sending someone in a predictable and uninfluenced trajectory is just the same as locking them in place for a second; we all know just how poorly the Sandman and Natascha are, why is there no such outcry about the compression blast's mechanics?

    Fix these 3 and we'll have a class that's both fun to play and fun to play against.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 10Winner Winner x 1 (list)

  25. Post #25
    R.M.T.B.'s Avatar
    May 2013
    2,679 Posts
    There are really 3 core issues with the Pyro.

    1. Flame particles are awful.
    The particles as they are now make the flamethrower an incredibly easy weapon to use with an entry-level skillset. Yet with a higher-level skillset, the flamethrower's shortcomings are exacerbated: the particles are unreliable in trajectory, incredibly limited in zoning capabilities, and just flat out don't do much damage in comparison to other primary weapons. Having ease of use but limited overall capabilities make for the flamethrowers' primary method of attack have very little depth beyond learning how to get into attacking range (which is a skill that's not specific to Pyro) or learning how to lead the particles (which is a crapshoot with how unpredictable they can be).

    2. Class wasn't built as an ambusher.
    It never was back in Quake, it never was in TFC, and it sure as hell wasn't in TF2. The class was literally "that guy with the flamethrower" in days of old; as such he just adhered to the clunky Hollywood-esq flamethrower effects that have stuck since the 90s. The Scout, Medic, and Spy all got drastic overhauls from the shift from TFC to TF2, the Pyro should have been reimagined along with them. The class isn't ambusher by design, but by necessity of its mechanics. The ambush-oriented weapons that the Pyro has gotten over the years have been hodgepodge bandages over the leaky ship that is Pyro. They hadn't decided what exactly the class's role should be for having such ease of entry and use. Afterburn and penetrating flame particles are more akin to general disruption than ambush; it forces teams to scatter in order to find ways to mitigate the damage they're taking. If the class were more intentionally designed as a disruption class, we'd be in a very different place right now.

    3. Compression blast's mechanics are poorly handled.
    In particular, how they impact enemy positioning is poorly handled. We have a game where sources of knockback are determined by the force of impact and directional influence: hit someone with a crit and they'll go flying in the direction you hit them in; the Force-a-Nature and all explosives are exaggerations of this consistent knockback system that's in place. Then there's the compression blast which sends the victim in the exact same trajectory every single time. This makes it uninteresting for the Pyro and frustrating for the victim. Since it's so one-dimensional in how it affects the victim, it offers little depth to allow the Pyro to do some really interesting things with knockback and introduces a skill requirement needed to properly juggle someone instead of staring at them and taping down M2. Mechanics should be fun to use and to play against, the compression blast is insufficient at meeting those 2 prerequisites. Losing player control in any real-time game only breaks immersion, sending someone in a predictable and uninfluenced trajectory is just the same as locking them in place for a second; we all know just how poorly the Sandman and Natascha are, why is there no such outcry about the compression blast's mechanics?

    Fix these 3 and we'll have a class that's both fun to play and fun to play against.
    But how would you fix these 3 problems?
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  26. Post #26
    thephantur's Avatar
    September 2013
    224 Posts
    There are really 3 core issues with the Pyro.

    1. Flame particles are awful.
    The particles as they are now make the flamethrower an incredibly easy weapon to use with an entry-level skillset. Yet with a higher-level skillset, the flamethrower's shortcomings are exacerbated: the particles are unreliable in trajectory, incredibly limited in zoning capabilities, and just flat out don't do much damage in comparison to other primary weapons. Having ease of use but limited overall capabilities make for the flamethrowers' primary method of attack have very little depth beyond learning how to get into attacking range (which is a skill that's not specific to Pyro) or learning how to lead the particles (which is a crapshoot with how unpredictable they can be).

    2. Class wasn't built as an ambusher.
    It never was back in Quake, it never was in TFC, and it sure as hell wasn't in TF2. The class was literally "that guy with the flamethrower" in days of old; as such he just adhered to the clunky Hollywood-esq flamethrower effects that have stuck since the 90s. The Scout, Medic, and Spy all got drastic overhauls from the shift from TFC to TF2, the Pyro should have been reimagined along with them. The class isn't ambusher by design, but by necessity of its mechanics. The ambush-oriented weapons that the Pyro has gotten over the years have been hodgepodge bandages over the leaky ship that is Pyro. They hadn't decided what exactly the class's role should be for having such ease of entry and use. Afterburn and penetrating flame particles are more akin to general disruption than ambush; it forces teams to scatter in order to find ways to mitigate the damage they're taking. If the class were more intentionally designed as a disruption class, we'd be in a very different place right now.

    3. Compression blast's mechanics are poorly handled.
    In particular, how they impact enemy positioning is poorly handled. We have a game where sources of knockback are determined by the force of impact and directional influence: hit someone with a crit and they'll go flying in the direction you hit them in; the Force-a-Nature and all explosives are exaggerations of this consistent knockback system that's in place. Then there's the compression blast which sends the victim in the exact same trajectory every single time. This makes it uninteresting for the Pyro and frustrating for the victim. Since it's so one-dimensional in how it affects the victim, it offers little depth to allow the Pyro to do some really interesting things with knockback and introduces a skill requirement needed to properly juggle someone instead of staring at them and taping down M2. Mechanics should be fun to use and to play against, the compression blast is insufficient at meeting those 2 prerequisites. Losing player control in any real-time game only breaks immersion, sending someone in a predictable and uninfluenced trajectory is just the same as locking them in place for a second; we all know just how poorly the Sandman and Natascha are, why is there no such outcry about the compression blast's mechanics?

    Fix these 3 and we'll have a class that's both fun to play and fun to play against.
    To add onto your point about flame particles, the actual particles don't usually reflect where the actual fire is. It's annoying. You can be around the side and think you're safe and still get set on fire. Maybe if it was harder to set someone on fire it'd fix some of the problem.

  27. Post #27
    kariko's Avatar
    May 2011
    1,456 Posts
    The particles seem pretty unpredictable. There are times I never even touched them and I burst into flames, and then there are times when they are clearly in my face and I somehow get away without a scratch.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 4 (list)

  28. Post #28
    Raffle Rigger
    Psychopath12's Avatar
    November 2010
    16,627 Posts
    But how would you fix these 3 problems?
    Nothing short of an overhaul would address the problem with the unreliable particle stream or the class's misdesign as a pseudo ambush/disruptor instead of full-blown disruption/skirmishing class. No doubt about it. In a world where I would be in control of the Pyro's design, I would intentionally craft it around real-life flamethrowers as well as the Lightning Gun from Quake. In practice, the flamethrower would still have a finite range, clocking in at about 512 hammer units (which is defined as midrange in TF2). The stream of damage is extremely tight, as the Lightning Gun is a weapon primarily about tracking your target. Accuracy is rewarded with a substantial damage dealer while flailing around will do miniscule damage. Afterburn would be worked into as a factor of damage dealt: the duration would not be changing, merely the intensity of the damage. More burning = more afterburn, simple enough. Plus since the class would be shifted into a close-mid skirmisher, it'd allow the Pyro to actually make use of hit and run instead of getting close to the point of having no escape and hoping that the 500+ DPS minigun-toting heavy doesn't turn to look at him.

    If the Pyro were designed like this from the start, I can guarantee you that we wouldn't have even been given airblast in the first place due to how it'd just flat out buff a competent weapon to the point of silliness (since it'd be able to shut down Soldiers at a comfortable midrange while still dealing damage).

    And as far as compression blast's knockback goes. It's simple: make it influenced by direction. Not that hard of a concept to grasp and put into practice, the Force-a-Nature and Loose Cannon are shining examples of directional-knockback being a core part of a weapon.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 5 (list)

  29. Post #29
    R.M.T.B.'s Avatar
    May 2013
    2,679 Posts
    Nothing short of an overhaul would address the problem with the unreliable particle stream or the class's misdesign as a pseudo ambush/disruptor instead of full-blown disruption/skirmishing class. No doubt about it. In a world where I would be in control of the Pyro's design, I would intentionally craft it around real-life flamethrowers as well as the Lightning Gun from Quake. In practice, the flamethrower would still have a finite range, clocking in at about 512 hammer units (which is defined as midrange in TF2). The stream of damage is extremely tight, as the Lightning Gun is a weapon primarily about tracking your target. Accuracy is rewarded with a substantial damage dealer while flailing around will do miniscule damage. Afterburn would be worked into as a factor of damage dealt: the duration would not be changing, merely the intensity of the damage. More burning = more afterburn, simple enough. Plus since the class would be shifted into a close-mid skirmisher, it'd allow the Pyro to actually make use of hit and run instead of getting close to the point of having no escape and hoping that the 500+ DPS minigun-toting heavy doesn't turn to look at him.

    If the Pyro were designed like this from the start, I can guarantee you that we wouldn't have even been given airblast in the first place due to how it'd just flat out buff a competent weapon to the point of silliness (since it'd be able to shut down Soldiers at a comfortable midrange while still dealing damage).

    And as far as compression blast's knockback goes. It's simple: make it influenced by direction. Not that hard of a concept to grasp and put into practice, the Force-a-Nature and Loose Cannon are shining examples of directional-knockback being a core part of a weapon.
    I agree about all those ideas, but valve won't give a shit to fix pyro :(
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  30. Post #30
    Gold Member
    Xyrofen's Avatar
    June 2008
    1,729 Posts
    The particles seem pretty unpredictable. There are times I never even touched them and I burst into flames, and then there are times when they are clearly in my face and I somehow get away without a scratch.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac United States Show Events Funny Funny x 14 (list)

  31. Post #31
    C4rnage's Avatar
    November 2009
    2,501 Posts
    I think the flamethrower needs a overhaul, like already said, at newbies skill level it is a good weapon, but at high skill level it is not an effective primary weapon like ScatterGun,Rocket/Pipe Launchers...

    often on pyro discussions someone brings the Lightning Gun from quake or the LinkGun from unreal tournament to the table, those weapons were powerfull on their game and they rewarded good aiming/skills.

    i dont think just making the flamethrower a lightning gun is the best idea.
    instead i think we should keep current flamethrower mechanics and incorporate lightning gun mechanics:
    Standing still

    Strafing


    the blue boxes are current flamethrower particles hitbox,
    the green line would be "lightning gun" part of the flamethrower,the particles on this green line would have a much smaller hitbox almost like hitscan weapon and would travel extremely fast, behaving quite like a lightning gun,the max range would be slight longer than default particles, this would solve unreliable trajectory of the weapon.
    the damage would be higher, lets say ~9-10 per particle at pointblank range and ~6-7 at end. However this particle dont penetrate enemies.

    So bad pyros that cant aim , would get the old flamethrower while he wm1 and you strafe.
    A good pyro will keep your ass on his aim and get higher and more consistent damage.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Brazil Show Events Winner Winner x 14Agree Agree x 3Informative Informative x 1 (list)

  32. Post #32
    OceanGovernor's Avatar
    August 2012
    747 Posts
    The pyro suffers from a myriad of problems. Close range class with the lowest damaging primary, inability to get into his optimal range, particle based weapon, undefined class function, band-aid unlocks, low skill ceiling etc

    Only an overhaul of his problems could fix him but that's the most unlikely thing to happen with the current tf2 team so pyro is stuck as is, a class that has to rely on others to mess up which as one goes from low to mid to high skill games becomes increasingly irrelevant. The large number of low skilled players results in pyro being considered a "problem" so if you arent rating clocks you should not post in the thread.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac United States Show Events Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)

  33. Post #33
    Gold Member
    LaughingStock's Avatar
    August 2010
    8,078 Posts
    i have a new weapon idea: the W+M-Run

    while attack1 is being used, the pyro gets a 50% speed boost

    this is the single best weapon idea ever
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac United States Show Events Funny Funny x 10Winner Winner x 2 (list)

  34. Post #34
    Gold Member
    t h e's Avatar
    February 2011
    6,778 Posts
    Sorry to be extremely ignorant, but why is the Pyro a hot topic all of a sudden? I'm seriously sorry if I'm acting stupid, but the Pyro was never discussed this much back when I played. Did something happen? Not to say I disagree with your points, a lot of you I must say I agree and hadn't realized after a while. Just curious as to why the sudden discussion of Pyro is happening.

  35. Post #35
    thephantur's Avatar
    September 2013
    224 Posts
    Sorry to be extremely ignorant, but why is the Pyro a hot topic all of a sudden? I'm seriously sorry if I'm acting stupid, but the Pyro was never discussed this much back when I played. Did something happen? Not to say I disagree with your points, a lot of you I must say I agree and hadn't realized after a while. Just curious as to why the sudden discussion of Pyro is happening.
    With the Pyro's unlocks he becomes easy to play and horribly skill-indexed with cheap insta-crits no other class can compare with as well as an annoying ability to hinder the enemy's movement. A trait Valve says was a mistake in adding when referring to the Sandman.

    Examples of unlocks that are too easy to use for a huge buff would be the Reserve Shooter, originally meant for Soldiers to basically make it so that the better you are at juggling the better you can do. With Pyro's airblast there is no such skill needed. Hit M2 and boom, free mini-crits. You don't even need top-notch aim to get a solid, meaty hit in with those mini-crits. The Flare Gun is similar though less worrying than the Reserve Shooter being that it's a slow-shooting projectile. The worst, though, is the Axtinguisher which basically gives free crits on demand. With the Pyro's fast movement speed and 175 HP getting up close and personal with the Axtinguisher is relatively easy. Other unlocks by the Pyro are just useless, aka the other melee weapons. The Backscratcher is a niche weapon where your team lacks a medic. The Powerjack is the only good sidegrade. The Homewrecker is gimmicky. The ease to destroy buildings sounds nice but with knockback on mini-sentries that buff isn't as glorious. The ability to remove sappers is a get-out-of-jail card for the Pyro, equivalent to the Spy's Dead Ringer and Spycicle. You basically get to make up for being a dumb fuck and not doing what your class is supposed to do, aka catching the Spy before he stab-n-saps. The Neon Annihilator is just a shittier version of the Homewrecker.

    Without the unlocks, Pyro is horribly underwhelming and needs to rely on ambush techniques, techniques his class is not designed around and doesn't have the tools to do so unlike the Scout and Spy.

    The flames themselves are poorly designed, with the visible particles not representing the actual hitboxes making playing against a Pyro a chore when trying to dodge said particles.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  36. Post #36
    Drury's Avatar
    April 2011
    8,175 Posts
    You know, something along the lines of this would be neat.


    1. Increases pyro's mobility

    2. Punishes W+M1 tactics (including puff'n'sting)
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Slovakia Show Events Winner Winner x 4 (list)

  37. Post #37
    lilgamefreek's Avatar
    November 2010
    185 Posts
    I liked fortress forever. Pyro was also useless but it had some fun gimmicks. Namely the flamethrower push and afterburn stacking (hitting an enemy with different fire weapons/grenades took them through three different levels of afterburn, with the highest causing them to scream their heads).
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 8 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2Winner Winner x 2 (list)

  38. Post #38
    OceanGovernor's Avatar
    August 2012
    747 Posts
    You know, something along the lines of this would be neat.

    FFFC

    1. Increases pyro's mobility

    2. Punishes W+M1 tactics (including puff'n'sting)
    W+M1 should not be punished though, it should be made more rewarding for good aim such as C4rnage brought up.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  39. Post #39
    Gold Member
    VinLAURiA's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,421 Posts
    Can't really think of a way to tweak fire. Fortress Forever uses a gradual system where you take more fire and afterburn damage the longer you're being roasted - then again, FF is a completely different game.
    Pretty much what I had in mind, but more granular. Basically, being on fire would work on a scale - for simplicity's sake in this example, let's say 0-100%. Higher burn level would mean more damage per tick, more flames in your view, and the more "on fire" you would appear. But the idea is that instead of just the current time limit before the fire suddenly goes out completely, the fire level slowly goes down over time as it burns out. Not only that, but a person wouldn't start out 100% on fire: the Pyro would have to keep up the burning in order to build up the flames and quick attacks would only deal out a minor burn that goes out quickly.

    Not only would it encourage sustained flamethrowing more in line with the Pyro's "spread chaos" role instead of quick hit-and-run execution tactics, it gives us more variables to work with. Flamethrowers can be balanced with not only the amount of damage they do, but how quickly they can build up fire and how slowly their fire goes out. The Degreaser could have a weaker build-up of flames than the standard Flamethrower that only build up to a certain level, but leaves a slow burn that may do less damage per second, but lasts longer and weakens more slowly. Instead of critical damage, the Backburner could build up flames incredibly quickly when hitting someone in the back. The flare guns can bump up the fire by different amounts: getting hit with the classic Flare Gun would bump up your fire level by 40% or so, but the Detonator's splash damage would be balanced out by only doing 25% on a direct hit and go down the further one is from the blast (rough estimates, of course.) That way, instead of - say - critting people who are already on fire, consecutive hits would be rewarded by just increasing the flames that much more and have them do the extra damage.

    Even the fire level itself can be used as a variable: take the Axtinguisher, which could do more damage depending on how much a person is burning but would immediately put them out, so you can indeed use it to finish people off who are burning violently after a major flame attack, but it would only do minor damage in the current "Street Fighter" combo everyone loves to use where you immediately axe them after only a small puff of flame.

    And most importantly: it's more fair to be on the receiving end of this system because it gives you a time to react before the flames to get really bad, so you can minimize the damage by getting rid of the Pyro quickly.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  40. Post #40
    Dennab
    June 2009
    215 Posts
    Axtinguisher MINI-CRITS on burning Targets perhaps?

    I wonder if a shorter flame particle life (Means the fire won't reach as far before going out, so the range woudl be reduced) for the Degreaser would change anything?
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Disagree Disagree x 5Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)