1. Post #41
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    No it was recorded on footage and most of the guards saw it before hi-tailing out of there. Don't believe it one bit but I found it interesting that something must of happened to trigger those camera's to be faulty
    Well sometimes cameras pick up signals from other locations that will interfere with them. Often they produce random nonsense that the human brain will end up detecting a pattern or familiarity of some kind in it and attributing it to something such as a ghost/demon/jesus.

    By the way, on a semi-unrelated note I find people who pretend to speak to the dead (Or live past lives or talk about channeling) to be usually full of shite. I find it amusing how often they choose to be involved with famous people when doing such. (Especially Cleopatra for some reason, who has been claimed to be at least 30 peoples past lives.)

  2. Post #42
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    Well sometimes cameras pick up signals from other locations that will interfere with them. Often they produce random nonsense that the human brain will end up detecting a pattern or familiarity of some kind in it and attributing it to something such as a ghost/demon/jesus.

    By the way, on a semi-unrelated note I find people who pretend to speak to the dead (Or live past lives or talk about channeling) to be usually full of shite. I find it amusing how often they choose to be involved with famous people when doing such. (Especially Cleopatra for some reason, who has been claimed to be at least 30 peoples past lives.)
    Usually full of shit? Please do elaborate on the ones that actually speak to the dead

  3. Post #43
    Gold Member

    June 2005
    1,071 Posts
    Once I farted so loud it woke my dog and then he was scared because he probably must've thought it was a ghost or somethtng.

    (User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - Read the rules sticky." - Megafan))

  4. Post #44
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    August 2005
    12,791 Posts
    I sort of think they exist...
    Friend of mine works at a Sharper Image store, and a woman bought there an alarm clock. Days later, she came back saying the clock was broken because when it got to midnight, it would go to 1am instead.
    So instead of going from 23:59 to 00:00, it would go to 1:00.
    They tried it at the store, and it seemed to work fine, at midnight switching to 00:00 as usual. She tooked it home again, except she came back with the same problem.
    They gave her a new alarm clock, different brand, and kept the old one, which again, at the store, worked just fine.
    Guess what, she came back again with the second brand new alarm clock claiming it had the exact same problem as the other...

    I don't know what to think about this, but my friend sort of thinks theres something spooky around all of this. I have no idea of what to think.

    While he was at this, the guy working with him also told him a story of how he was going upstairs to his apartment at night, and he suddenly saw a shadow go up the stairs.
    There was no one but him there at the moment, and the shadow just kept moving. It eventually passed by him up the stairs, without him knowing what caused the shadow to even be.

    I don't like thinking about this stuff because then I can't help to think I'll be on bed closing my eyes to fall asleep and then open my eyes for some reason and see something on top of me or by my sides or anywhere near me looking at me all "ghosty", or something screaming at me while I try to sleep, and as I write this, I fear that this will happen to me today or some other day just for writting it, and now that I said this, its sure to happen...

    But I really think theres something else... Alot of stuff like that has happened without any explanation. This is sort of a weird answer for that stuff, but... It fits...

  5. Post #45
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    Usually full of shit? Please do elaborate on the ones that actually speak to the dead
    Well I divide them into two groups, the ones who talk shit (The cranks and frauds.)

    The second group whom I refer to are the ones who have a mental disorder.

    I sort of think they exist...
    Friend of mine works at a Sharper Image store, and a woman bought there an alarm clock. Days later, she came back saying the clock was broken because when it got to midnight, it would go to 1am instead.
    So instead of going from 23:59 to 00:00, it would go to 1:00.
    They tried it at the store, and it seemed to work fine, at midnight switching to 00:00 as usual. She tooked it home again, except she came back with the same problem.
    They gave her a new alarm clock, different brand, and kept the old one, which again, at the store, worked just fine.
    Guess what, she came back again with the second brand new alarm clock claiming it had the exact same problem as the other...
    Sounds like she did not know how to operate a clock. It could have been switching to another hour automatically due to daylight savings.

    I don't know what to think about this, but my friend sort of thinks theres something spooky around all of this. I have no idea of what to think.

    While he was at this, the guy working with him also told him a story of how he was going upstairs to his apartment at night, and he suddenly saw a shadow go up the stairs.
    There was no one but him there at the moment, and the shadow just kept moving. It eventually passed by him up the stairs, without him knowing what caused the shadow to even be.

    I don't like thinking about this stuff because then I can't help to think I'll be on bed closing my eyes to fall asleep and then open my eyes for some reason and see something on top of me or by my sides or anywhere near me looking at me all "ghosty", or something screaming at me while I try to sleep, and as I write this, I fear that this will happen to me today or some other day just for writting it, and now that I said this, its sure to happen...

    But I really think theres something else... Alot of stuff like that has happened without any explanation. This is sort of a weird answer for that stuff, but... It fits...
    Try to face the issue head on with a clear and rational mind. Humans naturally are much weaker and defenceless in the dark, a fact established by our poor night eyesight and lack of other senses when out at night. When humans were on the run from wild animals, any tiny sound or flicker of light in the corner of the eye made humans keep aware something could possibly be around. This self defence mechanism is still with us today.

    When we started to farm, and wild animals gradually got eradicated or domesticated by us, the number of wild creatures to worry about diminished. You know that in a household it is impossible for a rabid dog to be in there. So naturally humans assumed other entities were following them. Werewolves for example were created by a scared human mind that probably mixed up a human and a wolf at some stage.

    Ghosts are no exception, for oddly enough at around the same time humans began to farm for a living, they buried their dead under the floors of their houses and put the skull on a rock nearby with decoration. Given that they worshipped these as a proto-religion, it is not a far stretch to say that these spiritual entities eventually evolved into the modern idea of a ghost.

    There is only one way to rid the world of "Ghosts". All you have to do is simply stop believing in them and convince others to do so as well. Once everybody stops believing in ghosts, the idea will die the death it was meant to centuries ago.

  6. Post #46
    Gold Member
    sp00ks's Avatar
    January 2008
    12,053 Posts
    I had an experience. I can't explain it, other than it happened.
    I can't explain how a car engine works, but that doesn't mean it's run by ghosts.
    Just accept that you can't explain it and don't make up extremely unrealistic explanations.

  7. Post #47
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    While I remain mostly undecided, I refuse to write ghosts off as an impossibility.

    Whilst ghosts have been well documented throughout history, so has stories of fire breathing dragons or one eyed giants. Many cases can be ascribed to many fascinating mental illness- I mean insights into the supernatural.
    Dragons and giants have been mentioned throughout history, but not in the sense that they have been widely sighted. Ghosts, on the other hand, have been widely reported throughout history (that includes up to modern day).

    Sleep paralysis is something well understood and documented now, along with seeing things out the corner of the eye, hallucinations, paranoia, ailments such as Ergotism (This causing hallucinations due to poisioning from various grain products infected with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claviceps_purpurea ) In the past however, these were not yet well understood. Often they were attributed to anything from ghosts to the devil.
    This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.

  8. Post #48
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    While I remain mostly undecided, I refuse to write ghosts off as an impossibility.



    Dragons and giants have been mentioned throughout history, but not in the sense that they have been widely sighted. Ghosts, on the other hand, have been widely reported throughout history (that includes up to modern day).



    This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.
    No, what you are failing to understand is that "Ghosts" in the past were inexplicable. However with proper research and a look into the matter, in modern times we have more or less explained it.

    Mediums do cold reading. Dragons are the misidentified remains of prehistoric animals. Ghosts are down to hallucinations and wishful thinking.

    Seriously, the people who spend their time ignoring the scientific method and coming to conclusions before even looking rationally at the matter are helping to perpetuate this madness and are wasting their time. The more rational people in the world the better. We can sort out nonsense from the truth.

  9. Post #49
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.
    Except you're comparing the electrical signals in your brain maintaining sentience without the organic counterpart and flying through space unaffected by laws of nature with stuff like the Higgs-Boson. I don't dismiss ghost sightings as lies, because they're perfect examples of the susceptibility of the human mind when it comes to thing like hallucinations and optical illusions.

  10. Post #50
    Judging people just because of their avatars/titles is RETARDED
    Bryceanater's Avatar
    March 2011
    8,664 Posts
    One time when i was a kid, there was an old abandoned shack and car in the woods where i lived, i was messing around until the abandoned car revved up. I ran for home. never went back.

  11. Post #51
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    Ghosts are down to hallucinations and wishful thinking.
    That's an easy thing to say from an observers perspective - like how epilepsy used to be simply discarded as 'retardation' because it couldn't be fully explained.

    Seriously, the people who spend their time ignoring the scientific method and coming to conclusions before even looking rationally at the matter are helping to perpetuate this madness and are wasting their time. The more rational people in the world the better. We can sort out nonsense from the truth.
    Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?

  12. Post #52
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?
    Yes, he did. And the scientific method was used to prove him wrong. The difference between Einstein and people who investigate the paranormal is that they don't use the scientific method.

  13. Post #53
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    That's an easy thing to say from an observers perspective - like how epilepsy used to be simply discarded as 'retardation' because it couldn't be fully explained.



    Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?
    Einstein supported the static universe theory because to not do so would be to conflict with his personal beliefs. He hated the opposing theory.

    Now what you are forgetting is that we more or less HAVE already explained ghosts to the best of our abilities thus far.

    Massive strides in the past 500 years have been achieved in physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, linguistics, history, geography, etc. What the collected weight of evidence from centuries of research, debate, understanding, cataloguing and revision of such has contributed to the knowledge the human race possesses.

    What we understand with this huge collection of information, is that there is a massive amount of evidence that does not support ghosts existing. People have tried to prove them and research into the matter for centuries, but have found many opposite results to what they have intended.

    Governments have spent years and countless stacks of money into research in the matter. If ghosts really did exist, do you not think that they would want to utilise the knowledge gained from this?

    Essentially, the case for favour of ghosts existing is incredibly weak compared to the one saying that ghosts do not exist. We have found many, many, many explanations and causes for what we perceived to be ghosts. Just because we cannot prove everything fully doesn't mean "Oh, science cannot fully disprove them, therefore they must exist!"

  14. Post #54
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    Einstein supported the static universe theory because to not do so would be to conflict with his personal beliefs. He hated the opposing theory.

    Now what you are forgetting is that we more or less HAVE already explained ghosts to the best of our abilities thus far.
    And Einstein explained his theory, which was proved wrong at a later date. My point is that the exact same thing could happen with ghosts.

    Also, it makes no idfference if he was defending his beliefs or not - he was still wrong.

    What we understand with this huge collection of information, is that there is a massive amount of evidence that does not support ghosts existing. People have tried to prove them and research into the matter for centuries, but have found many opposite results to what they have intended.

    Governments have spent years and countless stacks of money into research in the matter. If ghosts really did exist, do you not think that they would want to utilise the knowledge gained from this?
    You are making the terrible assumption that science has reached its peak where everything has been discovered and thus everything can be explained. That is amazingly narrow-minded and has caused countless set-backs in the past. Your argument boils down to: "it can't exist because it douesn't agree with our current theories". My point is that it may not do at present, but future developments in science may lead to a change in our understanding in such a way that makes them plausible - like how Newton's law of gravity being superceded by Eistein's theory of relativity explains why a smaller, but denser, object than Earth would have a greater gravitational pull.

    Essentially, the case for favour of ghosts existing is incredibly weak compared to the one saying that ghosts do not exist. We have found many, many, many explanations and causes for what we perceived to be ghosts. Just because we cannot prove everything fully doesn't mean "Oh, science cannot fully disprove them, therefore they must exist!"
    Where did I ever say they must exist? Do you read my posts?

  15. Post #55
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    August 2005
    12,791 Posts
    Well I divide them into two groups, the ones who talk shit (The cranks and frauds.)

    The second group whom I refer to are the ones who have a mental disorder.



    Sounds like she did not know how to operate a clock. It could have been switching to another hour automatically due to daylight savings.



    Try to face the issue head on with a clear and rational mind. Humans naturally are much weaker and defenceless in the dark, a fact established by our poor night eyesight and lack of other senses when out at night. When humans were on the run from wild animals, any tiny sound or flicker of light in the corner of the eye made humans keep aware something could possibly be around. This self defence mechanism is still with us today.

    When we started to farm, and wild animals gradually got eradicated or domesticated by us, the number of wild creatures to worry about diminished. You know that in a household it is impossible for a rabid dog to be in there. So naturally humans assumed other entities were following them. Werewolves for example were created by a scared human mind that probably mixed up a human and a wolf at some stage.

    Ghosts are no exception, for oddly enough at around the same time humans began to farm for a living, they buried their dead under the floors of their houses and put the skull on a rock nearby with decoration. Given that they worshipped these as a proto-religion, it is not a far stretch to say that these spiritual entities eventually evolved into the modern idea of a ghost.

    There is only one way to rid the world of "Ghosts". All you have to do is simply stop believing in them and convince others to do so as well. Once everybody stops believing in ghosts, the idea will die the death it was meant to centuries ago.
    I don't know man... Some stuff just doesn't seems right, like those photos that capture people who "weren't supposed to be there", weird things happening inside a house like weird sounds and stuff...
    It seems farfetched and silly, but I can't help to think theres some truth to it.

    Its easier for me to believe in ghosts and paranormal phenomena like that than in people who say they can contact the dead and sense evil and anger in a house. Thats pure hokkus pokkus to me. That and blessings.

  16. Post #56
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    You are making the terrible assumption that science has reached its peak where everything has been discovered and thus everything can be explained.
    No, it's more of a case that the compiled evidence at this present moment in time shows that it is highly highly improbable they do not exist, bloody hell.

    "it can't exist because it douesn't agree with our current theories"
    No you cabbage. The reason that many rational minded people out there think that ghosts do not exist is because:

    IN THE PAST 500 YEARS, THE EVIDENCE FOUND FOR IN FAVOUR OF GHOSTS PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE RESEARCH DONE ON THE SUBJECT THAT HAS EXPLAINED MANY THINGS ATTRIBUTED ONCE TO GHOSTS NOW EXPLAINABLE. THE EVIDENCE COLLECTED THUS FAR IN FAVOUR OF GHOSTS NOT EXISTING GREATLY OUTWEIGHS THE EVIDENCE PROVING THEY EXIST.
    I don't know man... Some stuff just doesn't seems right, like those photos that capture people who "weren't supposed to be there", weird things happening inside a house like weird sounds and stuff...
    It seems farfetched and silly, but I can't help to think theres some truth to it.
    You simply have to find a logical explanation for it. You can only really start thinking a ghost is involved once you have eradicated every single other possibility that could have happened.

    Photos who capture people not there, ranges from imperfections in the lens to bad photo developing or lighting or the such. Anything that seems out of place will be thought as by a human as creating a pattern.



    This is a example. This cloud was formed from water vapour. The shapes made are more or less random. However its been well documented for centuries that humans can pick out patterns from them. All of these views are more or less subjective and often conflict with each other on the nature of these clouds.

    However we can explain much about clouds, we know how they form, why they form, what happens to them, etc. Lightning, rain and snow once were unexplainable things coming from these clouds that can now be easily explained.

    Ghosts are the same. We thought that instead of a poorly insulated wall or odd sounds a ghost was present. We can now explain this.

    Ghosts are what the superstitious fall back to when they cannot be arsed to work out a real explanation or as a result of wishful thinking.

  17. Post #57
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    August 2005
    12,791 Posts
    What if you find something without explanation? (literally)

  18. Post #58
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    What if you find something without explanation? (literally)
    Well if it cannot be explained, then that could also not be explained as a ghost either since it would be "Without explanation".

    If it cannot be explained, nobody would have the faintest clue what it could be.

  19. Post #59
    Glod Menber
    TurbisV2's Avatar
    May 2008
    24,551 Posts
    What if you find something without explanation? (literally)
    if something can't be explained you don't point at the least proven theory and say that this is what it is.
    thats what christians do

  20. Post #60
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    What if you find something without explanation? (literally)
    That's where a lot of people differ. Rational people accept that there is no current explanation. Religious people believe God did it. Superstitious people believe the dead did it. Or aliens.

    Some of you might get mad at the whole 'rational people' thing, but then I will just explain that trying to come up with an answer for something without any kind of basis for believing that answer (ghosts/gods/aliens) other than 'because' is irrational.

  21. Post #61
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    August 2005
    12,791 Posts
    Well if it cannot be explained, then that could also not be explained as a ghost either since it would be "Without explanation".

    If it cannot be explained, nobody would have the faintest clue what it could be.
    Hmmm. What if something without explanation were to happen in a place said to be haunted?

    Edited:

    That's where a lot of people differ. Rational people accept that there is no current explanation. Religious people believe God did it. Superstitious people believe the dead did it. Or aliens.

    Some of you might get mad at the whole 'rational people' thing, but then I will just explain that trying to come up with an answer for something without any kind of basis for believing that answer (ghosts/gods/aliens) other than 'because' is irrational.
    I'm not one of "those". I just find some crap to be really weird.
    The whole "God did it" seems like an excuse to not find an answer and to be further stuck to a backwards shackling belief.

  22. Post #62
    Glod Menber
    TurbisV2's Avatar
    May 2008
    24,551 Posts
    Hmmm. What if something without explanation were to happen in a place said to be haunted?

    Edited:


    I'm not one of "those". I just find some crap to be really weird.
    The whole "God did it" seems like an excuse to not find an answer and to be further stuck to a backwards shackling belief.

    the only reason something without explaination would be a big deal in a place that is said to be haunted is because people think that the place is haunted in the first place.
    just because people think and say it is haunted doesn't mean it is

  23. Post #63
    Greenen73's Avatar
    April 2011
    47 Posts
    And Einstein explained his theory, which was proved wrong at a later date. My point is that the exact same thing could happen with ghosts.
    Fantastic, you're all well and good, but entirely out the window in terms of saying ghosts exist. Once you go out and prove ghosts exist, we'll all believe you

    Edited:

    And once you prove the existence of the matter these ghosts are made of, you can prove ghosts exist

    Edited:

    (Science is based on continual refinement and adding additional knowledge to the pile. If you want to prove something exists, you need to prove every facet that allows its existence. Sadly, nobody has been able to satisfy the conditions for proof on ghosts, nor any of the supposed hypotheses on how they are able to exist.)

  24. Post #64
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    August 2005
    12,791 Posts
    the only reason something without explaination would be a big deal in a place that is said to be haunted is because people think that the place is haunted in the first place.
    just because people think and say it is haunted doesn't mean it is
    Well heres to hoping the ghosts of whatever don't come to scream at me tonight. I know my "Amnesia style sanity" will start working but oh well...

  25. Post #65
    Wet Birds
    Levithan's Avatar
    September 2005
    8,042 Posts
    There would need to be a ghost corpse or ghost poop at least, with so many of them existing.

  26. Post #66
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    No, it's more of a case that the compiled evidence at this present moment in time shows that it is highly highly improbable they do not exist, bloody hell.
    Since "highly highly improbable" does not translate to "impossible", you either agree with me or re-assess what you just said.

    Besides, you are completely ignoring what I am saying. I am saying that just because at this moment in time it seems improbable by current scientific reasoning, that does not mean this will not change in the future. Man spent hundreds of years trying to achieve flight - by your logic we shouldn't be able to fly at the moment because it couldn't be achieved back in Da Vinci's time.

    Read my lips: our understanding of the world around us changes constantly. This has happened throughout history. Just because something seems improbable/impossible now does not mean that a discovery in the future won't change things and make it all seem a lot more rational. I have already provided examples of this happening previously.

    No you cabbage. The reason that many rational minded people out there think that ghosts do not exist is because:
    Except what your argument is flawed by the following:

    "Any scientific theory is closely tied to empirical findings, and always remains subject to falsification if new experimental observation incompatible with it is found. That is, no theory can ever be seriously considered certain as new evidence falsifying it can be discovered."

    Which sums up exactly the exactly the point I am making. Ironically, I pulled that quote from the scientific method page.

    You simply have to find a logical explanation for it. You can only really start thinking a ghost is involved once you have eradicated every single other possibility that could have happened.

    Photos who capture people not there, ranges from imperfections in the lens to bad photo developing or lighting or the such. Anything that seems out of place will be thought as by a human as creating a pattern.
    Unfortunately, unless you have conclusive proof that every picture ever taken that is claimed to be of a ghost is a fake/illusion/lighting anomaly, this hold little weight. Don't get me wrong - on the flip side I can't prove that every picture (or even any picture, for that matter) is real, but I don't need to: you're trying to prove ghosts can't exist, I'm merely saying that you can't rule them out entirely.



    This is a example. This cloud was formed from water vapour. The shapes made are more or less random. However its been well documented for centuries that humans can pick out patterns from them. All of these views are more or less subjective and often conflict with each other on the nature of these clouds.

    However we can explain much about clouds, we know how they form, why they form, what happens to them, etc. Lightning, rain and snow once were unexplainable things coming from these clouds that can now be easily explained.

    Ghosts are the same. We thought that instead of a poorly insulated wall or odd sounds a ghost was present. We can now explain this.

    Ghosts are what the superstitious fall back to when they cannot be arsed to work out a real explanation or as a result of wishful thinking.
    I don't know where you are going with this. You are comparing something perfectly ordinary (a pattern in a cloud) to something extra-ordinary (someone seeing a ghost) - something you can explain to something you can't explain.

    Fantastic, you're all well and good, but entirely out the window in terms of saying ghosts exist. Once you go out and prove ghosts exist, we'll all believe you

    Edited:

    And once you prove the existence of the matter these ghosts are made of, you can prove ghosts exist

    Edited:

    (Science is based on continual refinement and adding additional knowledge to the pile. If you want to prove something exists, you need to prove every facet that allows its existence. Sadly, nobody has been able to satisfy the conditions for proof on ghosts, nor any of the supposed hypotheses on how they are able to exist.)
    You seem to have some sort of vendetta against me - and it's annoying not because you disagree with me (I couldn't care less), but because you dive in at the deep end without reading anything I have previously posted. This is the second time you have done this.

    I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GHOSTS

  27. Post #67
    rivershark's Avatar
    February 2010
    1,243 Posts
    Let me start my argument by saying that I see no rational explanation for "ghosts".

    WITH THAT SAID, I think there are just way too many events, sightings, and occurrences to ignore or attribute to crazy people. We're talking about millions of reports from every corner of the earth since the dawn of civilization. I have made peace with the rationale that there are some things that our current level of scientific understanding can just not explain. That's it. Maybe in the future we will make an amazing discovery and find out why these things happen, or maybe we will make an amazing discovery to explain how so many people hallucinate such similar things.

    It's kind of like bigfoot. Think about this: You can ask; "How could such a creature exist without any good evidence being collected?" and "How could such an animal survive with such a clandestine pattern of living?". But if you ask those questions, you also have to ask: "How could tens of thousands of people across thousands of miles all come forward and make reports of witnessing strikingly similar events?"

    On an opposing note, I can personally attest to experiencing hallucinations during times of extreme fear.

  28. Post #68
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    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    WITH THAT SAID, I think there are just way too many events, sightings, and occurrences to ignore or attribute to crazy people. We're talking about millions of reports from every corner of the earth since the dawn of civilization. I have made peace with the rationale that there are some things that our current level of scientific understanding can just not explain. That's it. Maybe in the future we will make an amazing discovery and find out why these things happen, or maybe we will make an amazing discovery to explain how so many people hallucinate such similar things.
    But at the moment we already have a pretty good idea of what causes these things. The evolutionary leftover of being fearful of things in the dark for example. Various mental illnesses have been identified since then. Various substances can cause hallucinations. Wishful thinking.

    The first religions to come about were based around the idea of everything having a soul of some kind. It is not a huge leap to say that these souls can influence events after expiration of the human. (Which doesn't happen, cognitive thought dies as readily as brain tissue.)

    When you have these religions all form around the world, and people who WANT to believe in ghosts you get situations like that. The world is full of cranks, nutjobs and the such will still perpetuate the myth of ghosts despite the fact that we have more or less found rational and logical explanations for all these events.

    Out of control body experiences have been proven time and time again to never work any better than guessing in double blind tests. This runs along the same idea that ghosts do. Simply put is that these people are simply pretending or mentally ill.

    It's kind of like bigfoot. Think about this: You can ask; "How could such a creature exist without any good evidence being collected?" and "How could such an animal survive with such a clandestine pattern of living?". But if you ask those questions, you also have to ask: "How could tens of thousands of people across thousands of miles all come forward and make reports of witnessing strikingly similar events?"
    You also have to consider that the very first bigfoot tracks were proven to be a hoax, the infamous film was a fake, and that the legend only spread like wildfire after people heard of the first story. Empirical evidence in the field has yield aprox: nothing. Scientific studies over the past 50 years have yielded nothing. Saying that bigfoot exists is like saying that evolution is false.


    I don't know where you are going with this. You are comparing something perfectly ordinary (a pattern in a cloud) to something extra-ordinary (someone seeing a ghost) - something you can explain to something you can't explain.
    Today the cloud is perfectly ordinary. But back a few thousand years and nobody had a clue of anything about them. Ghosts were also seen as extra-ordinary then.

    What has changed is our understanding of them. Those things in the sky are clouds, we know a lot about them. Those things called ghosts are down to a whole plethora of fascinating articles of interest such as diseases, mental disorders, or just plain bullshitting.

    The evidence collected is not completely there. We can find out something tomorrow that will overturn everything we know about clouds, but clouds aren't treated as supernatural are they? That is what we should do for ghosts. We treat it like we do with clouds, with a rational and logical mind. Until we find something that overturns our understanding of ghosts or clouds, we can safely rely on the existing knowledge as being generally true.

    And until then, we know that ghost hunters, mediums, psychics, fortune tellers, curses, exorcists, etc are all just full of shit.

  29. Post #69
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    Today the cloud is perfectly ordinary. But back a few thousand years and nobody had a clue of anything about them. Ghosts were also seen as extra-ordinary then.

    What has changed is our understanding of them. Those things in the sky are clouds, we know a lot about them. Those things called ghosts are down to a whole plethora of fascinating articles of interest such as diseases, mental disorders, or just plain bullshitting.

    The evidence collected is not completely there. We can find out something tomorrow that will overturn everything we know about clouds, but clouds aren't treated as supernatural are they? That is what we should do for ghosts. We treat it like we do with clouds, with a rational and logical mind. Until we find something that overturns our understanding of ghosts or clouds, we can safely rely on the existing knowledge as being generally true.

    And until then, we know that ghost hunters, mediums, psychics, fortune tellers, curses, exorcists, etc are all just full of shit.
    No. Because we can explain what a cloud is - with evidence to back it up. All we have for ghosts is theories with no conclusive proof that it is a 'disease', 'mental disorder' or 'bullshitting'. Unless you would like to provide said proof for every ghost sighting? You're applying a hypothesis to explain something without using the scientific method to back it up.

    There is nothing to conclusively prove ghosts exist. There is nothing to conclusively prove ghosts don't exist. It is as simple as that.

  30. Post #70
    Greenen73's Avatar
    April 2011
    47 Posts
    You seem to have some sort of vendetta against me - and it's annoying not because you disagree with me (I couldn't care less), but because you dive in at the deep end without reading anything I have previously posted. This is the second time you have done this.

    I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GHOSTS
    You're saying that ghosts can exist. Fine, you've won, your point is undebatable, as it can never be falsified. Why the fuck are you debating

    Edited:

    As it stands, the scientific community agrees that the null hypothesis is "Ghosts don't exist", as the scientific data is heaped against ghosts, and every ghost 'sighting' ever examined. It is now in the hands of the paranormal investigators to disprove the null hypothesis.

  31. Post #71
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    You're saying that ghosts can exist. Fine, you've won, your point is undebatable, as it can never be falsified. Why the fuck are you debating

    Edited:

    As it stands, the scientific community agrees that the null hypothesis is "Ghosts don't exist", as the scientific data is heaped against ghosts, and every ghost 'sighting' ever examined. It is now in the hands of the paranormal investigators to disprove the null hypothesis.
    a. Why do you care what I debate?
    b. It's not undebatable, as I just held a debate with Sobotnik about it.
    c. In a thread about ghosts, are you seriously berating me for putting a case forward which explains why they can't be written off entirely?
    d. It can be falsified, since there are both arguments for and against ghosts (read up on falsification).

  32. Post #72
    Gold Member
    Thlis's Avatar
    January 2007
    2,293 Posts
    a. Why do you care what I debate?
    b. It's not undebatable, as I just held a debate with Sobotnik about it.
    c. In a thread about ghosts, are you seriously berating me for putting a case forward which explains why they can't be written off entirely?
    d. It can be falsified, since there are both arguments for and against ghosts (read up on falsification).
    I'd like to hear an argument for ghosts.

    Edited:

    No it was recorded on footage and most of the guards saw it before hi-tailing out of there. Don't believe it one bit but I found it interesting that something must of happened to trigger those camera's to be faulty
    Those are some pretty shitty guards.

  33. Post #73
    Greenen73's Avatar
    April 2011
    47 Posts
    a. Why do you care what I debate?
    b. It's not undebatable, as I just held a debate with Sobotnik about it.
    c. In a thread about ghosts, are you seriously berating me for putting a case forward which explains why they can't be written off entirely?
    d. It can be falsified, since there are both arguments for and against ghosts (read up on falsification).
    a. "Mass Debate"
    b. Not a debate, you're just providing counterpoints to him. It's a bit one-sided.
    c. Yes. On the otherhand, if you want to put the case forward on why they exist, I'd be perfectly happy to hear that.
    d. Could you please give a few examples of what may falsify "ghosts might exist"?

  34. Post #74
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    a. "Mass Debate"
    And yet you have come along and started a debate on how I am debating - unrelated to the orginal topic.

    b. Not a debate, you're just providing counterpoints to him. It's a bit one-sided.
    Sorry, I'll be sure to just agree with the other person next time. That will make for a great debate.

    c. Yes. On the otherhand, if you want to put the case forward on why they exist, I'd be perfectly happy to hear that.
    In other words: "you can only debate what I agree with".

    d. Could you please give a few examples of what may falsify "ghosts might exist"?
    My own debate with Sobotnik. He insisted ghosts can't exist. I insisted ghosts might exist. Thus it is falsifiable and will continue to be as long as at least one person insists ghosts can't exist.

    "The assertion that "all swans are white" is falsifiable, because it is empirically verifiable that there are swans that are not white."

  35. Post #75
    Greenen73's Avatar
    April 2011
    47 Posts
    Sorry, I'll be sure to just agree with the other person next time. That will make for a great debate.
    Now you're just being silly :)
    (You and sobotnik are arguing the same point i.e. in agreement- "Ghosts probably don't exist" vs "Ghosts might exist")



    In other words: "you can only debate what I agree with".
    Not I, the scientific community


    My own debate with Sobotnik. He insisted ghosts can't exist. I insisted ghosts might exist. Thus it is falsifiable and will continue to be as long as at least one person insists ghosts can't exist.
    Lmao, arguing with someone about something doesn't make it falsifiable. You can falsify evolution by presenting the preserved remains of a human found from the dinosaur age. If you want to make the claim that ghosts might exist, there needs to be a way to falsify it other than "I can argue with someone about it".

  36. Post #76

    September 2007
    398 Posts
    Oh my god David29, you're beating a dead horse.

    Sobotnik says that it is highly probable that Ghosts do not exist given modern knowledge. You keep giving bullshit philosophical excuses such as that science keeps changing therefore we can never truly know. You also have the burden of proof in this argument and arguing about it's validity is just as pointless as arguing about religion, or the existence of the Easter bunny.

    Also, ghosts existence is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE by it's own definition. Just look at the definitions of phenomenon and noumenon laid out by Kant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon

    Let us also note the probability of the existence of ghosts is so extremely small that we can essentially state that "ghosts do not exist" as a fact, where as your argument would be valid for being a skeptic of something more complicated like string theory etc.

  37. Post #77
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    Oh my god David29, you're beating a dead horse.

    Sobotnik says that it is highly probable that Ghosts do not exist given modern knowledge. You keep giving bullshit philosophical excuses such as that science keeps changing therefore we can never truly know.
    How is that bullshit when throughout history things that have seemed impossible in the past have been made possible by new discoveries?

    Also, ghosts existence is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE by it's own definition. Just look at the definitions of phenomenon and noumenon laid out by Kant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon
    That hasn't told me anything, except that ghosts are something that can be observed.

    Now you're just being silly :)
    (You and sobotnik are arguing the same point i.e. in agreement- "Ghosts probably don't exist" vs "Ghosts might exist")
    Clearly we aren't, or we wouldn't be arguing.

    Not I, the scientific community
    Then why does this thread exist?

    Fuckit. I don't care any more.

  38. Post #78
    Greenen73's Avatar
    April 2011
    47 Posts
    Clearly we aren't, or we wouldn't be arguing.

    Then why does this thread exist?
    Debate threads exist because guys like you and sobotnik like arguing points that don't even add up, or just turn into a jumbled mess of huge quote pyramids. It doesn't matter what your points are, because as long as either of you identify as "the other side", you're still going to sling shit at each other.

    How is that bullshit when throughout history things that have seemed impossible in the past have been made possible by new discoveries?
    As it stands, until the point where someone can say "this is how ghosts exist", there is zero point in debating, since your point sums up as "there might be something in the future that shows ghosts can exist". Next post is probably going to be something along the lines of
    No, it's more of a case that the compiled evidence at this present moment in time shows that it is highly highly improbable they do not exist, bloody hell.
    ad infinitum

  39. Post #79
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,986 Posts
    Debate threads exist because guys like you and sobotnik like arguing points that don't even add up, or just turn into a jumbled mess of huge quote pyramids. It doesn't matter what your points are, because as long as either of you identify as "the other side", you're still going to sling shit at each other.


    As it stands, until the point where someone can say "this is how ghosts exist", there is zero point in debating, since your point sums up as "there might be something in the future that shows ghosts can exist". Next post is probably going to be something along the lines of
    ad infinitum
    I suppose I grateful that at last you have finally taken some of what I have said on board and actually understand my point. I feel I can finish relatively happy on that note.

  40. Post #80

    September 2007
    398 Posts
    I suppose I grateful that at last you have finally taken some of what I have said on board and actually understand my point. I feel I can finish relatively happy on that note.
    What you're stating can be said for every single argument in the universe, in other words it is a trivial solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triviality_(mathematics)

    Us thinkers like to ignore trivial solutions in arguments while talking about what is real and what is not.

    There is an infinite set of trivial solutions for an infinite number of arguments. Have you begun to see where the logic starts breaking down into infinity?